Kia ora, hi everyone, welcome back, a special hi to all our new listeners. In the first season of our podcast. I did two episodes on Skinwalkers, a bit of the history and people’s personal experiences. I have to admit that this is a subject that has fascinated me since I first read about them so many decades ago. It continues to have a fascination for me. So, if this is a subject you also find interesting be sure and check out the two episodes from season one.  In these episodes, I spoke with a woman. This woman, had her voice altered and spoke on the condition of anonymity, due to the taboo about talking about this subject. But she, like my guests in this episode, is from the Navajo nation, and she continues to live there.

My guests tonight, like my guest last episode, and my guest next episode, came to my attention through a series of posts they made on TikTok. Their posts detailed a personal experience that they had with a Skinwalker. Of course, this immediately caught my attention. I reached out to them, and this episode is the result of that.

Speaking about Skinwalkers is not something that most will talk about openly as my guests today are. It’s as I mentioned before, very taboo and discouraged, for a number of reasons. Personal safety is possibly the most important reason. For some, this is a very scary and fear-inducing topic. With that being said, are you willing to walk back with me into this part of the shadowlands and see what awaits us there? Let’s begin.

Muriel (Meo) and Isaiah are Navajo, born and raised on the Navajo Nation in Arizona. They grew up in a Christian household, but still follow the traditions and cultures of their Navajo ancestry and background. They both enjoy telling stories and decided to remove the taboo of talking about certain creatures, or stories from their tribe. Whilst they don’t actively pursue paranormal, or supernatural things, they do tell the stories of their encounters, and the encounters of friends and family.

I want to welcome you both, Meo and Isaiah, for joining me today and my listeners. I’m really grateful to have you here with us, and I’ve been excitedly waiting for our conversation. Now, for my listeners I want you to know that I first came across this couple on TikTok. And I was really impressed with the honesty, and the fact they were putting their face out there. Talking about things that are regarded as sacred, or taboo. Or, just not talked about in general public, amongst their culture. Now maybe we could – Maybe you could tell us, either of you – could start with where you’re from? And what your cultural background is, please, if you don’t mind?

Isaiah: Well first, my name, is Isaiah. I come from a small town in the Navajo reservation called Deinihootso, and that’s where I come from.

Meo: My name is Mio. I actually come from a small town, a slightly bigger town than my husband. About thirty miles away from Kayenta, Arizona. But we were both born and raised on the Navajo nation in Arizona.

Is that near like? I know there’s a part in the states they call it the four corners? Or something like that?

Meo: Yes. We’re actually So we’re actually about an hour and a half away from the Four Corners area. Like an hour. Like an hour away. Where I’m from is more close to the Arizona/Utah border. It’s about 30 minutes away from Monument Valley. Monument Valley’s a very famous National Park in Utah. So, that’s where my Dad’s family’s from. So, I’m about thirty minutes away from there, and he’s about thirty minutes away from me.

Right. And I have heard of Monument Valley. That’s the place where they have those beautiful. . .

Meo: The Buttes. They’re kind of shaped like that [ creates wave shape with hands].

Yes, yeah. Shaped like waves. I was trying to – I’m sorry listeners, I was waving my arms around, and I know you can’t see me doing that. But yes, all the beautiful stones that are shaped like, – ah, very, very beautiful place. And I was in Utah for a while, just for a couple of months learning Spanish, before I went down to Guatemala. But I loved it! I loved the countryside. I loved the desert, it’s just absolutely beautiful. It has a real energy, and stillness about it out in the desert. Doesn’t it? It’s just beautiful

Meo: I’m very biased, but I agree. I think there’s something – there’s almost an otherworldly beauty around the Southwest. Like beyond the desert. Honestly, for me, I don’t think anything quite compares to sunrise, or sunset there.

I agree. I went to Australia – For those who are new to my program, I’m from New Zealand. And I visited Australia a couple of years ago. And I went to Uluru, which is smack-bang in the center of the desert, in Australia. The skies were amazing! And the vastness . . .  You say an hour away, in terms of distance in the States, that’s not very far at all, is it? An hour’s distance. No.

Meo: No. Not at all.

Whereas, here in little New Zealand, that’s quite a way to travel. Maybe you could begin, if you don’t mind but giving us a little bit about your background and how you grew up, perhaps some of the – Because, I know there is so much interest with people who want to learn. So maybe you could give us some of your cultural norms that you grew up with. You know, like your taboos, your traditions. Like no whistling at night, stuff like that?

Isaiah: OK, well, I can go first. Growing up, my mom was raised in our traditional ways. Her family all grew up traditional Navajo. They grew up in the old teachings, the old ways.  Waking up, doing your prayers, offerings, and stuff of that sort. My dad’s side of the family, they grew up Christian, due to my grandmother. Growing up, my mom changed her life, became a Christian, but she’s the only Christian on her side of the family. So growing up for me, I always had a conflict with being Christian. And having my relatives in my family, on my father’s side, always criticizing me for, how you say it? Studying or having faith in the white man’s religions – Is what they would always say.

So I grew up, knowing a bunch of taboo stuff. The do’s, the don’ts. What to do, what not to do when you wake up in the morning. What not to do, what not to say. Things that I should be wary about. Like you said, like you mentioned earlier, no whistling at night. Also, you can’t point at the rainbow with your finger, or else, one of your fingers would be a little short. As you can see, I did that. I have a small, I have a smaller thumb, So,  growing up I would always point at the rainbow, and they would say, don’t do that! But anyways, I grew up in all of that. And I did grow up with some of the ceremonial ways and stuff like that. So I was always conflicted, between being Christian, and being Native American, or being Navajo, on our own traditional teachings. 

As far as Skinwalker, don’t really like mentioning that part. Because, there was a mention of someone in my family who did practice it. But, they’re no longer here with us, because, they chose not to follow through. That’s as pretty much as far as I can go on that one.

Meo: So, for me, my grandparents, on both my maternal and paternal sides were the first Christians in their sides as well. So, I was raised in a Christian household. My grandma, my maternal grandma, she comes from a long line of medicine women. She was actually taught to, ah – It’s what they call ‘Hand Trembling’, it’s a form of what a medicine woman does. That’s what she was supposed to be taught by my great-grandmother. But she didn’t feel right learning that and she declined to learn that practice.

So, it was years later she ended up having her near-death experience, where she became a Christian. And it was sometime later, my grandfather, her husband, he was a practicing medicine man – I don’t quite know what his testimony was, and how he came to Christ, but he ended up becoming a Christian as well. So far as I am aware, he was the first on his side of the family to also end up changing faiths.

For me, I didn’t really have a huge, I guess, identity crisis with what I believed in. I was always taught in traditional ways. Stories and stuff, by my grandmother.  But I guess, it wasn’t a huge conflict for me until I got older, and I kind of realized that there was a lot of conflicting things between both beliefs. I think it’s something I still go back and forth with, trying to preserve that cultural identity and the traditions we were both taught growing up. And then trying to still believe, have that belief in God and Jesus, and stuff like that.

Right! It’s really difficult isn’t it to – And then, there’s a lot of conflict there for a lot of people in similar situations. Going back to what you said, in – Amongst the native Māori here in New Zealand, they also have a tradition of not whistling at night. Which I find is very interesting, that we both share the same tradition. We also have a lot of other things that are not acceptable. Like it’s taboo to sit on a table. To put your bottom on a table that people work from, or eat from. You don’t wear shoes in the house. Just lots of little things like that. And a lot of them have a basis, in actually, common sense. You know, why would you want to eat off a table where somebody has been sitting? You know, it’s just hygienic practices, I guess? But I know that there’s a lot of our cultural traditional beliefs are rooted in the spiritual practices. Like, I had never heard the one about pointing at a rainbow before. That’s very fascinating to me. I find that’s really interesting.

What sort of – Is it ok if we talk about, before we got onto other subjects, if we talk about some traditional beliefs? Because, I mean, I’m, I’m just like a sponge. I love to learn about this stuff. And it helps my education. It helps me to understand other cultures. And I always think that it’s such a great thing to learn about other cultures. It expands your understanding and interesting things for me like we both have no whistling at night. That, you know, here we are at opposite ends of the world, yet our native people have the same tradition.

Isaiah: Yeah.

Meo: Yeah. We have no problem with that. Usually, – Like you said, you found us on TikTok. A lot of the lives that we have with the people that follow us, we  actually do give like little tidbits of history, and things. Answering questions about our culture and stuff like that. It’s something I personally enjoy doing. So usually my husband just lets me speak.

Isaiah: Yeah.  Though, like my wife is saying, she’s really passionate about that. Growing up for me, it was always told that – ah, not told. But it was always kind of shunned a little bit, for us to teach our ways to non-native Americans, especially non-Navajo. But, I think that at some point in life, it would be interesting for other people to understand, and know, our culture and  history as well. Like you said, cultural appropriation, just so they can get a better understanding and knowledge. There’s also a few other things that are taboo for Navajo as well.

There’s another thing that we do is, hey, your hair. It’s sacred to us.  Growing out your hair, having long hair. That is why for me and trying to grow my hair out now, after many years of cutting it, and being in the military. When your hair gets cut or if your hair falls out, we’re always told to bury it, or burn it.  Because, in a way, that is a way for people to use dark magic, or witchcraft in some way, shape or form. They will use your hair, or any pieces. Like I said, our hair is pretty sacred to us. And we were always told to bury it,  or burn our hair. Or, pieces of clothing. Or, personal belongings, because it can be used as a way for connection and witchcraft or dark magic. So whenever someone would get their hair cut in some way, shape or form, we’re always told to burn it. I’m pretty sure everyone knows that we shed hair constantly. So growing up for me, people would sweep it up. If we see hair, people just throw it in the trash normally. But growing up traditional, for my side of the family, we were always told to gather the hair, take it outside, and burn, or bury it.

Meo: So that was actually, I think for me too. like I said, it’s interesting because my grandparents, they became Christian. But despite being Christian, they always hold on to a lot of those traditions of cool things like that. So when I was growing up, I always had really long hair. So my grandma used to be very adamant that once you gather the hair that’s either been shed or that you gather in the comb, or brush, or something, to burn it.

I was also told by another one of my friends whose grandmother was a medicine woman as well.  That not to walk outside barefoot as well. Because, the oils from the feet, can be left in the imprint of when you’re outside. And people who practice like dark magic, or I guess what we would call bad medicine. They could use that as well to make specific, I guess, like hexes towards you, because it’s a personal belonging, I guess.

Actually, that’s a very, very valid point and one that I hadn’t considered. But that, also, is very common amongst other belief systems like practicing pagans and wiccans, and stuff like that. That’s so interesting, isn’t it? Because it’s energy!  It’s our. energy that we leave behind. So, I understand that thinking. Going back to your long hair, I remember reading an article. I think it was about – Not the Navajo wind talkers,  because it was about native men who were inducted into the army that they used as trackers.

I remember reading, it was really fascinating how they were really good trackers. And then,  when they had to cut their hair, the army made them cut the hair. They lost that ability, of tracking. It’s a true thing. I can’t remember where I read it. And so the Army did some research and they ultimately they let these men who were trained for specific missions, keep their hair long. Because, their hair acted as an antenna for their senses.

Meo: So, like my husband was saying, our hair is very special. Especially in our culture, I know it’s a common thing amongst a lot of indigenous cultures. But for our tribe specifically, hair represents rain, because we live in the southwest. So it’s a very dry, arid area. So, the reason why we were always taught to grow our hair out is because if we cut it, it’s like inviting a drought. So we were always told, like since our hair represents rain, that we’re supposed to keep it long. So that we can always get our monsoon seasons, that we can have that water to basically out in the southwest, water is life for us. So its crops, it’s things for our livestock and such. It’s still such a big thing, even to this day. Water is a huge resource out there. So that tradition of keeping our hair long is –  it’s unfortunately not kept too much anymore by our generation and the generations after us, but a lot of people still definitely believe that.

Oh, that’s really, really interesting. I always wondered why the long hair was so significant. And the braiding of the hair has a significance as well, doesn’t it, when you break it?

Meo: Yes. So, I know this is the same for a lot of plain tribes as well. Usually they say when you’re braiding your hair, you’re supposed to only kind of think of good intentions. Or, positive stuff.  Because, it’s kind of like the usually in your making, your hair, it’s the beginning of the day. You want a lot of that positivity to go into that, especially with the Navajo culture. We have this thing called the Beauty Way, which is very significant in our culture. So it’s a prayer, basically. So that in itself, if you ever listen to the prayer, it’s inviting like positivity into your life. I guess I can always pretty much.

Isaiah: Yeah.  Well, for me, my understanding was that braiding one’s hair was not really a – how you say it? Like a fashion for Native American men and women back in the day.  For us, it was put in our hair tsiiyéél, which is a traditional hairstyle that you would see most Navaho.  Or even some other local tribes are copying them. Do their own, for their own versions of tsiiyéél. That’s kind of the way we would do it, not really braiding.

 Meo: So, the plains tribes, which is like the Lakota Cherokee. A lot of the ones that are further up north from us, do braid their hair. It’s kind of iconic. So like my husband is saying, he would do what we call a hair bun, basically. But even with that, there is a similarity when you’re brushing your hair. Like I remember my grandmother used to brush my hair for me, as a, when I was younger. She would still, and it was still a part of the teaching, is you want good intentions even when you’re brushing it. Even if we don’t – even if our tribe specifically didn’t do the hair braiding. It was still something that was a part of them.

Right. Absolutely. I run a Facebook group that’s only small. It only has about 6000 people in it. But I’m always telling people that intent is absolutely everything. It’s your intent. Intent is what creates action and it draws energy to you. So I totally get what you were saying. I absolutely understand it entirely, it’s really interesting.

And I know that a lot of Māori men here in New Zealand, also wore their hair in buns, and they have combs that they hold it with. Special combs that are carved out of shell, or wood. And I don’t know the name of them. I wish I did. I love it! I love them. And they often put feathers in their hair as well.  What I find fascinating is that there are a lot of cultural similarities. They have slightly different, but the basics are the same.  Like the hair, the – Can you tell me why you don’t whistle at night?

Isaiah: Well, what I was always told was, if you whistle at night, you kind of calling out to spirits in a way, shape or form. You’re kind of inviting them in a way. And we were always told not to venture out at night, due to multiple, and many reasons. And including up to Skinwalkers. I’m not really knowledgeable on that, but there was a lot of things growing up. Especially from my Grandmother passing it onto my parents, and to my grandparents. And not only just myself, but, friends and family that I have. They would always encounter supernatural things. Or extra-terrestrial, you’d be surprised, UFO’s and sightings of that sort are pretty common, especially in our traditional beliefs, and stuff like that. We were always told not to go outside for those specific reasons. We’re always ushered inside and to remain inside during the times. As far as listening, basically what I was told is that you’re inviting spirits in any way, shape or form when you whistle at night. So it was always told that we were allowed to do that or we shouldn’t be doing that.

And what about if you hear whistling?

Meo: So, what I was always told is you’re never supposed to reply back. That’s kind of a given It. was kind of the same thing with if you hear your name being called not to call back or to answer. It’s what I was told, was that I guess with the whistling at night. It’s if you whistle at night, spirit’s supposedly they can’t see you. It’s not until you whistle or that they know where you’re at, your location. At least that’s what I was told. And then as far as hearing somebody whistling at you or hearing somebody call your name at night, I was always told, like, if you don’t know who it’s coming from, don’t answer. Because, it could be a spirit as well. And when you answer back, then they’re able to see your location.

Right. That’s really interesting. Now, the thing that brought you both to my attention was your story about the Skinwalker. Could you please share that with my audience if that’s OK?

Isaiah: Do you want us to talk about what a Skinwalker is, or do you start. . .

Yes. Yes, let’s start with that, because I have a lot of new listeners, so who may not know what a Skinwalker is. It’s a great place to start, thank you.

Meo: So, for Skinwalkers, I do know that there’s different origin stories based on what part of the reservation you’re coming from. For me, my husband, we had a similar origin story that we were told when we were growing up, which is that Skinwalkers were basically –  They’re people, they’re people. That a long time ago., the ability to shape shift into animals was actually kind of seen as a good thing. They were used as messengers in between small bands of Navajo. Especially during the times when the US Army was trying to round us up, and we had this conflict with the US government at that time.

So the people who have this ability to shape shift into animals were used as messengers, or kind of like an early warning system for other bands of Navajos. So that they could, or flee, whatever they need to do. It wasn’t until, I don’t know quite when that change happened, but just like anything else, humans are very fallible to a lot of things. Like greed and revenge, jealousy, things like that. So, when those started becoming a thing with the people who practiced the skin walking – I don’t know if that’s a verb? But, it started becoming more synonymous with evil intentions are evil intent.

Right, so Skinwalkers were likened to witches?

Isaiah: They weren’t like witches. They were basically medicine men. They were basically, they were taught the art of doing this shapeshifting. And like my wife said, we were back in the day bands of Navajo. We weren’t a united, united tribe. We were different bands with different head chiefs, and yes, we would war upon one another, and that sorts. But, the area we grew up at, our little area, that’s the origin story of how we were taught. A friend of mine who lives in the further southern area, New Mexico, part of the reservation, she was told that Skinwalker is basically the same way. They were used as messengers.

They were also used as a way for gathering warriors in the time of need. If there were a tribe or something coming to make war on us. And we were so spread apart that they would send out Skinwalkers because they were able to travel faster, and do – They were able to shape, to  shapeshift into multiple animals, to make, travel further distances. And they would be used to send messages to gather the warriors. Or, to inform the people that such things,  bad things were coming. To go and hide.

I was also told from her –  Her family comes from a bunch of medicine men and she still practices the old traditional ways. And she’s very hands on that. She’s actually writing a book being Native American in the modern world. And so, yeah, she’s coming out with her own book about how people are trying to corrupt our stories, to further, how you say it? Modern agendas and their way, shape or form. And how stories are being twisted to fit ideas. But she was told that Skinwalkers were used for hunting as well. Because, the game was so scarce, not scarce, but the game was kind of hard to find. Skinwalkers would go out and locate herds of deer, or locate certain animals for hunting. And they will report back. And it was sent out to scouts. The scouts would go and find them. And they would use the Skinwalkers to, to help herd these animals to where these tribes, or these other bands of Navajo would be able to hunt them. And gather food or pelts for clothing and that sorts.

Meo: So that was another reason. That’s another way Skinwalkers were used, was to locate game. So it’s. It’s very unfortunate, I guess, where that shift happened, like we always hear stories like this about how they were used for good intentions. It’s unfortunate, we really don’t know where that huge shift changed. And where it became more synonymous with evil, with evil intentions.

Yeah. That’s really – I find that quite sad actually. But, it’s also a reflection on human nature isn’t it?

Isaiah: It is

Whether is done through greed or feeling slighted or whatever. Whatever the intent. The intent is that yeah, that’s really a shame. I had a question. I should have written it down, but it’s gone now. Oh! In order for one to become a Skinwalker these days. Is it correct that they have to do some really bad stuff?

Isaiah: Yes. You, I’m not entirely sure how you would go around to becoming one or finding someone that would teach you? I was always told, and there’s a pastor actually who practiced the ways of skin-walking. Like I mentioned before, but my dad’s a pastor, he came out of some hard ways. Throughout his years of ministering, he came across another Native American folk, Navajo, who was a pastor and lives here in Oklahoma with us. Is his family, unfortunately, practice that sort of witchcraft and magic. He was brought up the same way.

And I remember when I first got out of the Marines, we travelled all the way back across from North Carolina to Arizona, and we stopped and we met this gentleman and his wife. And I asked him the question of if the Skinwalkers were real, and he said yes. And I was like, oh? And I was like, how does one become one? And he says, You’re not taught, you don’t find out. You’re kind of chosen. You’re kind of picked. You’re kind of picked to do this, and it is up to the person if they want to continue on with trying to practice this dark magic.

Yes, you would have to go through ceremonies. You would have to be brought up in that. You would have to do multiple ceremonies. And that means you also have to interact with –  he really didn’t get too much detail to it. But he said one of the final things that you would have to do in order to fully, to be able to transform into skin, is you wouldn’t have to take a life of a loved one, someone you love. That is one of the final steps for you to do. You would have to do such thing, in order to fully be able to gain the capabilities of shapeshifting into a skin, or whatever it is you want to do. And he said that he did not want to do that., for his target that was picked for him, was his sister, who he loved dearly. And said no! And he wouldn’t share with me what happened, but, he did pray to God that he would be saved. And he would be protected. And no harm would come to him and his sister, and no harm did come to them. And that’s how he became a Christian. Because, he said that God did protect him and his sister. And that’s why he’s a pastor now, to this day.

And I – That’s exactly what I had heard. I’d heard that they had to kill a loved one. And I remember reading a story about a woman who – And they often, I understood, that they pick specific people who have abilities. Or, they feel they’re particularly malleable. And I recall reading the story about a woman who was told – She was given the option actually. She was told that she had to kill one of her children, or they would kill her.

Isaiah: Yeah.

Meo: Hm hmm, you see how it goes?

Isaiah: Yeah. That’s what I’m talking about. You’re, you’re given the option to do so. And if you don’t want to go through with it, yeah, you basically forfeit your life!

Meo: It’s an ultimation, ultimately. So it’s either your life, or theirs, ultimately.

That’s pretty horrific, isn’t it? And of course, you can’t tell who is, or who isn’t a Skinwalker just by looking at them. They could be your neighbour and you wouldn’t know.

Meo: Yes, we usually tell people who have asked that very same question on our TikTok channel, about how do you know who’s, if somebody’s a Skinwalker. It’s like, you don’t!

Isaiah: You don’t.

Meo: It could be a family member, a friend, a neighbour. Anybody really.

I would say, unless you are particularly sensitive to energies, you know like myself. I’m a sensitive. And you can pick up different people’s energies, you can, you might feel that there is something ‘off’ about that person. Although you might not necessarily know what it was. You feel uncomfortable, or uneasy, or something like that. But, other than that, the average person wouldn’t be able to tell. That’s a scary thing isn’t it? That’s the scary thing about it. So, having that understanding of what a Skinwalker is, can you please share your experience that you had?

Isaiah: Yes. so my experience takes place in the summer of two-thousand-seventeen. My wife and I moved to Japan at the time and I moved back. I was living in Arizona, back in my hometown of Deinihootso. I just gotten off work. And just to give you a little back story, before this whole thing happened. I came home from work and I would say about a week or maybe a week and a half before this whole experience happened. My window to the room that I was staying in –  I was living in my aunt’s house. And re-modelling her home for her, due to some damages.

And when I came home, the window to the room was open. And the next morning, as I was getting ready for work, I noticed that three of my shirts were cut. There were little square fabrics that were cut out of them. So me being Native American and Navajo, being taught our entire traditions. I knew that, you know, this thing was using my clothes to gain an attachment in some way, shape or form. So fast forward about a week later to the experience that I shared on to TikTok. The one you came across.

I was in bed, and it was late at night.  Because, I came home from –  and I was on the phone with my wife that night. And living in that house, that would always be cats that were walking on the roof.  And can really, you can distinguish and tell the difference between a cat, and someone running on the roof. So, you could hear the pause of the cats. And they would always stay at the edge of the house near the trusses.

And that night I was on the phone with my wife, and I heard running on my roof. And this was not just some light footed thing.  This was like someone stomping their feet, running up and down, in the middle part area. All the way down towards the living room and back to where, on top of the room I was at. And I was telling my wife about that. I was like, you know, I hear someone running on my roof, and I don’t know could you hear that honey?

Meo: I didn’t hear the footsteps that he was talking about, but I remember he did mention a couple of days prior, that his window would be open. And he was hearing like, loud bangs around the house, as well as the footsteps on top of the roof. I didn’t personally – I’m still kind of skeptical about things like that, so I was like, oh it’s just the cats. And I remember that night, he was really adamant, it’s not cats. It’s not the cats. I know they only walk on the edge of the roof and whatever’s up there, it’s running all over the roof! He was like, he kept getting frustrated with me that I couldn’t hear what he was at that time.

Isaiah: So, as I was explaining to my wife, all this that was going on – I had a lot of guns in the house. I heard some commotion going on, in the back of the house. And it sounded like an animal being attacked in some way. So I told my wife what was going on. I got up, and first time I left my phone right? Yeah, I left the phone in my room and went out to the back. And I grabbed my shotgun, because, I lived in the middle of nowhere. God knows what could be outside. So I grabbed my shot gun and I would have something called buckshot, which is nine, nine really big pellets inside a slug. I had that. I went outside, and I went, I opened the door. Immediately to my right, I remember seeing this big black figure. And it wasn’t solid. It wasn’t a solid black figure. It was almost

Meo: Like opaque. Like a smokey.

Isaiah: Yeah. So, it was translucent. And I remember seeing it mauling on something. And it was about five feet from me. I took aim with my shotgun, and I know a lot of people would say, ah, maybe you missed? No! I was a marine. I know how to shoot a riffle, and I wasn’t going to miss.  I shot whatever this thing was. It immediately dropped whatever was in its mouth, and took off! And when I went to go pick up what it was, it was a cat, and I’ve seen this cat around the house.

I saw her laying there and too – By the door, we have a water barrel, and on that water barrel there was an aluminium take out tray. So, I scooped the cat up in that and put it on top of the refrigerator. It was outside. And a lot of people were skeptical, because, they said it was nine feet tall. If you go onto the reservation and you’re going to have people that have a lot of junk outside their house. And this refrigerator was sitting on top of things as well. So, it was pretty high and it put this tray on the very top of it.

And I went inside to get my phone. And as I was getting my stuff, I heard something again. So, and I was on the phone. I grabbed the phone, I grabbed my phone and I went back outside. And the whole tray was gone. From how high I put it, the whole thing was gone! And I was telling my wife, I was like, the tray is gone! And she was like, what? And I was like, don’t know,  the damn tray’s gone. And she was like, what do you mean?

I was like, there’s no way whatever it was, could have grabbed this.  Because, I’m about close to six feet on one inch, Five, six feet. I stood on my tippy toes and stretched my arms all the way up, to put this thing on top of it. So this thing had to be pretty specifically tall, to grab this tray off of this refrigerator. And I went back inside and do you remember anything from this side honey?

Meo: So, from what happened with that, because, like he said, when he first went out and he initially saw the black figure attacking the cat, he dropped the phone in the room. So, I had no idea what was going on. I was freaking out, because, that’s when he heard the cat crying out, basically, it was being attacked. And I had no idea what was going on. So I just my husband was like, I’ll be right back. And he ran out. So, he just left the phone in the room and he came back in a couple of minutes later and he was like, something attacked the cat. And I was like, oh, like what happened? Initially, my first reaction was like, oh, probably some stray dogs that are out there. And he’s like, no, he’s like, I saw this big black thing. He was like it almost, it almost looked like a wolf. And he was like, it’s really large. He’s like I shot it, but it ran off. So I was like, OK. I was like, what did you do with the cat? Is she still alive? And I remember him telling me that she was still alive, and that he put her in the tray.

So he told me was he put her on a barrel. That’s what I remember. I think that’s really the main difference we had in our stories, was he put her in a barrel, ah  on top of the barrel in the aluminium tray. And then he came back in to grab the phone. So, when he grabbed the phone, we both heard a loud thump. So we’re like, what was that? That’s when he took the phone. We are in a vehicle. And when he opened the door, he was like, the tray is gone! And the cat’s gone! And I was like, What are you talking about? And he’s like, I put the cat right over there, and he was like, showing me on the phone.

And he’s like, I put her in an aluminium tray. So, I was like, I was like, OK. I was like is the tray anywhere? Did something grab it?  Like maybe if the dog’s in, I don’t know? Just trying to make sense of the situation. But he’s like, no!  He’s like everything’s gone! So he’s like, I’m going to go grab my other gun. So, he had a AR with him, and he went back in. And when he was headed back outside to go look for the cat again, the tray was beside the door. It was back on – There was a little blue barrel,  that was right beside the door. So right when he opened it up, the tray was right on top of it again. And I remember my husband was like the trays back!

He was like, just completely shocked. And I was like, what are you talking about? So, he showed me and it was just sitting there. There was no cat, just the tray. And he, my husband, when things freak him out, that fight or flight thing kicks in. He is all about fighting. So he was like, I’m going to go find it. I’m going to go out and see what it is.  Because, at that point we were just like, it’s, we think it’s taunting him like, oh, I got the cat and you’re bringing the tray back and things like that.

Honestly, if I wasn’t on that video call and he was showing me these things, I probably would have not believed him. But, since I was there and I just along for the ride on the phone call, it was really hard to believe, everything that was happening that night.

Isaiah: Yeah. So like my wife said, I went back inside to get my AR15, and I went on to put my plate carrier, my body armour on. And I grabbed my arm, my pistol as well, and I put that on. And during this whole time there was three loud bangs that happened at the front door. And I went to go check what it was, and there was nothing! And there was another three loud bangs that happened at the back door, so I ran back to the back door. And there was nothing.

And at this time, I was still trying to put on my boots, my stuff, my equipment, and I heard a bang again, but this time, instead of running through the house, I decided to go around on the outside to catch, to see if this was –  my initial thought was that there was either someone playing the game on me,  or if this was something out there, maybe I crossed paths with it outside. But nothing. And then the three loud bangs happen to get excited, so I ran around on the outside, in front, and they came around. And then I went back inside, I finally finished getting all my gear and I think I grabbed the phone at this point.

Meo: So, yeah, he had the phone with him and he was wearing, like, the plater carrier, just a vest. So he had, like, a little pouch that was kind of sitting up front on his, the vest he was wearing,

Isaiah: My chest armour.

Meo: So, he put the phone in there. So whatever he was seeing, I could kind of see it too with the camera.

Isaiah: At that point, I had everything on. And I was ready for whatever it was that was outside. And I had, my weapon was loaded. I remember, I was thinking of going outside the back door. I remember going back out. Huh?

Meo: Sorry, I didn’t mean to cut my husband off, but I remember when he was doing this, he was i going outside.  The moment he stepped out the door. There’s one –  he’s in a very rural area, like very few neighbours around him. But there was one streetlight that he has. It’s kind of up front. So when he walked out the door, like I said, the phone was kind of nestled on his chest. So I remember he stopped and he goes, I see something. He’s like, it’s right there! Do you see it? And he was pointing towards the lamp, or the streetlight. And he was like, there’s something kind of just on the outside of the light. And he’s like, can’t you see what I’m pointing at? And you were so frustrated at me, because, I couldn’t see what he was seeing. But, and that’s when he decided to go walk in that direction.

Isaiah: So this is before all that happened, I remember walking outside and I had my rifle. And on the chest piece was where the phone was. And that’s when I came outside. And I started looking around, and that’s when, like my wife said, off to the far, to the back of the house, there’s a streetlight. But, it’s one of those crappy, cheap ones where the light is orange. You barely see shit with that thing.  So, right at the edge of the light, where the light kind of really stops. Was this really dark figure, just sitting there. I’m talking about, if you look outside and you see black. This thing was darker than that.

Than black, right.

Isaiah: And I could see it, and I was telling my wife.

Meo: It’s watching me!

Isaiah: And I was like, it’s right there! It was like watching me. I was like, it’s looking at me. And I was like, you can’t see it?  And she goes, no, I can’t see it. And I was like, no –  I was kind of kind of, it’s kind of playing in my mind right now. You know? And I was like, it’s right there! It’s right there looking at me. And she’s like, no, I can’t see it!  And that’s when the smell hit.  It’s smell. Dead. Vomit, vomit. It was just so overpowering. To the point where I was starting to tremble a little bit. I’m starting to tremble a little bit right now. Can you see it?

I was like, honey it stinks! I was like, I don’t know what it is? It stinks! And I was like, it’s so over powering. And I started – felt like, I started to puke a little bit. And I was just like hurling. And I was like, I can’t, it stinks so bad. And I remember kind of laying down, and I don’t really remember much. But, I remember hearing Meo saying, go inside! Go inside!  But, I can’t. I can’t. And then I, my vision started getting blurry to the point where I, like, I couldn’t focus on anything. And I remember just laying down on the side and saying I can’t, I can’t move. I can’t move.

And, my body was just so exhausted. I don’t know if anybody’s ever like, worked out to the point where you just see bright stars? And you’re just kind of like, dazed out of it. That’s how it felt, and I was just lying there, I can’t move, I can’t move. And my wife, well I remember her screaming get inside! Please, go inside! And I was like, I can’t. I was like, I can’t. I was, I was so close to blacking out and as I lay there, that’s when I heard something chanting in Navajo. I mean, I can understand Navajo, not fully. But, I couldn’t make out what it was saying.

And, as I was lying there, I was like, if this is how I’m going to end, this is how I’m going to die? I was like,  I’m not going to die without a fight! And I remember willing myself, drawing as much energy as I can to move. And it took a tremendous amount of effort to even try to crawl.  And I started crawling to the back door, to the back door. And finally, when I passed the threshold – I had to wriggle myself, like a worm to the back door. And I used my foot to close the door. And I just lay there, breathing heavily.

And I was just lying there, trying to recover from this, and there was a loud, three loud bangs again on the back door! And I thought it was going to come inside. I mean, there was nothing I could have done to have stopped it, if it did.  I had no energy. I had no, every ounce of strength left in me was gone. I just lay there, and oh Jesus. I can’t really explain. I wish there was a way I could make people feel how I felt. Just the pure exhaustion. The fear that I had in me. But, I can’t, and there’s no real way I can put it in words for someone to understand. I don’t remember much from there. Do you remember anything from there?

Meo: I’m backtracking. When he talked about how the smell hit him, all the stories that I’ve heard about – you have to take a sip of that.

Isaiah: Oh, I’m sorry.

Meo: Just backtracking to my husband when he was talking about the smell. It was kind of like all those stories I’ve heard about Skinwalkers, all came flooding back. And my husband can tell you this too. Anytime we’ve heard of Skinwalkers and stuff like that, they always say it smells like death. It smells like rancid, rotting meat. And the moment he said that, and then he – I remember he said, I don’t feel so good. I feel sick. I was just like no! I remember, my head was like no. I’m so skeptical about these things, but even I didn’t want to chance it. And we were talking, just go back inside, just go back inside. Leave it alone.

And he wouldn’t, because he always has to go and like – I don’t know what it is about him? He will not back down. He has to go out, and he has to confront whatever it is. And so, I could, I couldn’t see him. I was, the phone was still on his chest, but the entire time I remember him saying, oh my head’s hurting. I feel so sick. I feel like I’m about to throw up. I remember him telling me, oh I feel light-headed. And he’s like, oh, I feel like I’m going to pass out. I remember when he was saying all of that. I was just go back inside! Go back inside! 

And I felt so helpless. Like my husband said, he was back in Arizona, I was in Japan. Just watching this whole scene play out. I was – he says he can’t remember this, but I remember. I was yelling at him to just get back inside. Because, it was freaking me out so much. But, I remember watching this all go down, as he was laying on the ground.  And I was like, just crawl into the door, crawl in the door!   And every time I talk with him about this this, he’s like, I don’t remember you saying that? He’s like I can’t remember you saying that? And I was like, I was yelling at you, to just get back inside.

I remember he started crawling. I could see the light from the house when he was getting to the door and stuff like that. And he was probably – When he finally got back inside and closed the door, he was probably lying there for about five minutes. And I was like, trying to talk to him. Like he said, he was just like, exhausted. Just like, spent. And he wasn’t talking to me, so I was on the phone with him that entire time, except the time that he started waking up, or coming to.

Isaiah: Shaking.

Meo: And he started, like – It was kind of interesting watching, oh not watching him, but hearing him on the phone as he was finally like – It was almost like he was in a trance? In a sense, like that energy, or whatever it was that was attacking him was suddenly, was wearing off. It was like waking up, finally coming to his senses. And finally, he was answering me back and stuff like that. And he was like, I don’t know what happened? I just felt like so sick, like I can’t – He was like, I can’t explain how it felt. I, that’s when he was asking, what happened? And I had to explain my side of the story, like yelling at him and stuff like that.

But, after he came to for a while, he was still like – It made him mad! It made him mad that whatever was out there had that kind of effect on him. And so he told me, I remember calling him stupid for this. I, he was going to go back out there! Again! And I don’t know if you want to pick up where I left off from there?

Isaiah: So, like my wife said, after being able to gain some sort of my consciousness back, like, my strength was starting to come back. And I was asking my wife, what happened? You know? What was going on? She basically tried to summarize what was going on. And, thinking about what happened, and how this thing was able to do something like that to me. And not have the balls to do it to me face to face, really pissed me off! Sorry if I’m going to cuss, but I was like

That’s alright

Isaiah: This motherfucker is not going to have the last laugh on me! If I’m going to die, I’m going to at least do whatever I can to hurt this! And it’s going to know it can be hurt. And it’s going to know that people will fight back. And my wife, I remember my wife was like, you’re stupid! Don’t go out there! Don’t do this! And I was like hm hmm no. And I was like, my mind’s already made up. I remember grabbing my riffle, and I was standing at the door. And I was like [exhaling heavily] hyping myself up. And like I said you know? I thought this was going to be my final moment. My little blaze of glory.

But, I remember opening the door, and majority of my instincts from my military training kicked in, at that point. I opened the door and everything zoned out. I didn’t, wasn’t even caring to listen to my wife. My focus was, finding whatever this was, and I was going to put as many rounds as I could, in it. I drew up my riffle, I opened the door, and I ran out. Had my riffle up, and I remember exactly where it was sitting at. And I went straight running for it.  And, there was nothing!

Meo: Mind you, at this point, when I did call him stupid for running out a second time, he hung up on me, so. . .

Isaiah: Yeah

Meo: I was freaked out.

Isaiah: Yeah, yeah. Oh! That’s right! I did hang up on you. Yes, she was trying to do everything she could to keep me from going out.

Meo: To keep him inside. But he would not listen to me so he hung up on me, and said, I’ll call you back. And I remember waiting on the phone for him to call me back, cause I, I could not fathom why he would do it, all over again?

Isaiah: I ran back outside, and I ran where I remember seeing this thing was. I ran straight up to it, full sprint. And I was dead set on finding this thing. It wasn’t there. I went running around the house. Running around the edge of the property. And nothing! I remember walking back. And it was just quiet, peaceful. As if, the last few minutes never happened. And that’s when my neighbour and saw me standing there, dressed like I was about to go into battle. And he was like hey! What are you doing?

I didn’t want to tell him.  I didn’t want to mention anything, because he probably would have thought I was a weirdo. But, I asked him. I was like oh, you know, just walking around. And he was like, did you feel something? And I was like what do you mean? He was like, I was sleeping and but I just randomly woke up, not too long ago. And he was like, there was a strong, negative, bad energy, and I woke up.

And, this side of the family, they’re my relatives. Because, most everyone in my small town is related to me in some way, shape, or form. Either through clan systems, or through blood. So, this side of the family, they’re really traditional. Really into old, traditional teachings. A lot of this family still go to the assemblies. And he said that he felt something really bad, negative, dark. And it woke him up. So, I proceed to tell him my story about what’s going on. And he just didn’t say anything. Didn’t flinch, just listened. And when I was done – On the Navajo reservation you hear a lot of people make fun of people, who have these experiences. Because, you get some people who make it up, and in our native tongue we say íítni, oh he said, she said. Oh, it’s just make believe.

Meo: Like when we are gossiping.

Isaiah: So, I was expecting a response from him, like that. But he just looked at me and said, that’s a Skinwalker. And I was like, what?  That’s a Skinwalker. And he was like, whatever it was, wanted you. But it couldn’t, it failed. And he was like, my family could do a protection-way ceremony, and like my wife and I said before early on. It’s conflicting being Christian and being traditional, right? I didn’t take the ceremony. Maybe I should have. I wanted to. But my belief in Christ and believing that he’s the one that could protect me again. And after that whole thing, I went back inside and called my wife, to let her know that was alive.

Meo: And that’s when he ended telling me what his neighbour had said.  And we talked about it too, like the whole, the conflict and stuff, about doing a ceremony and things like that. And like he said, his dad is a pastor and stuff like that. And our best protection at that time was like, we’ll just pray about it.

Isaiah: Yeah. So, my wife and I, that night we prayed for the house. Prayed that everything would be all right, that I would be protected. And I slept like a baby that night. Woke up the next day and went to work.

Meo: But, that’s not even the end of the story, because a few days later, his brother came to visit him. And that was a whole another story.

Isaiah: That’s a whole other story. But the morning that I woke up. I went outside to go, go to work. And I don’t know if you remember seeing my little crappy job when I did, on TikTok That was on my hood. But drawn in blood, dried blood. Yeah, like when you see blood and it starts to crust up and flake? Yep, and there was a feather on there. I looked at that and I was like, whatever, I just wiped it off. Like the feather, burnt that thing, went on with my day. Three days later, I don’t know if you want to hear this part of the story as well?

Yes please. No this is. . .

Isaiah: Three days later. My brother was –  he’s a bit of a drifter, and sad to say he’s an addict. I was with my family and my mom and dad who were living on the Apache reservation in Cinecitta,, Arizona. My best friend from high school, I won’t name his name, was living there as well. He was on his way home back to –  he lives, where my wife lives. And it’s only thirty minutes from where I live at the time in Deinihootso. So, my oldest brother, not the oldest, but the third oldest, wanted to come home. So he jumped in with him, decided to come home. But, he ended up getting arrested. Because he had a warrant for his arrest, so he got tossed in, in Holbrook, Arizona. So my friend made his way by himself, to where I was staying at. He was going to drop off his clothes. And we were outside, we came inside and we were just talking and chatting it up. And we went outside and my brother’s clothes were in the back. The back of the truck. Not inside, but in the back, the tailgate area. My brother’s clothes were all over the place, as if someone –  You remember? I don’t know if most of your listeners on podcasts will know anything about Jeepers Creepers?

The movie?

Isaiah:  Jeepers Creepers is an old film

Meo: She just said that, the movie.

Isaiah:  Yeah, the movie, yeah.  Do you remember when he goes, there’s someone outside sniffing your clothes? He was enjoying it to, and remember, his clothes were all over the place?

I never actually saw that movie, but I’m sure that some of my listeners have.

Isaiah: Yeah. So, my brother’s clothes were all over the place. As if someone was sifting through it.  Throwing  his stuff everywhere. And my friend and I went outside and really like, what the hell? You know? So we started gathering up everything and . . .

Meo: So pretty much when they were gathering everything up, they noticed that there were some articles of clothing that were still missing. So this entire time him and his friend had walked inside was probably about five minutes or less. And when they decided to come out and get his brother’s clothes from the vehicle. But, after they had collected everything, they went back inside. And I believe when you guys came back out, on the vehicle were the two articles of clothing! One was one part of a glove, and then another part a pair of socks that were left back on the vehicle. So I don’t, we talked about it and we’re thinking like maybe whatever had visited him previously, was probably trying to look for his clothes. And realized it was his brothers, and just ended up bringing it back. Because it wasn’t good to him.

Or just letting him know that he hadn’t finished with you yet?

Isaiah: That could be. Yeah. Yes.

Meo: We have a lot of people who kind of said the same thing when they were listening to our stories. But, there was actually a little bit more. We found out about the drawing that was left on the hood of our car. So this was after, like maybe a week after we posted our first TikTok video with my husband’s Skinwalker experience. So I was talking to my brother in law and he comes from a long line of medicine men. So a lot of the family members on his side, they work with like drawing’s, or how do you say like? The meanings of them.

The symbols, the symbology of it.

Meo: Symbols. Yes, right. So they do a lot of their medicine with that. So, he took the picture of what my husband drew, and he showed it to his dad and his dad told him that he had seen that symbol before. So his story was that my brother-in-law’s grandmother, had a cattle ranch maybe twenty years,? Twenty, thirty years ago. At least before my rother-in-law’s time, before he was born. And the grandmother was having a lot of cattle getting mutilated. A lot of mysterious deaths, or like some of the cattle were just like completely cut up, basically.

And the dad was working with his mom at the time, the grandmother, and they ended up coming across one of the windmills there. So it’s kind of just like this big water trough. And he said that symbol was drawn there in blood as well. And they don’t really know the true meaning of what it is. But they said that the intent behind that symbol is just like very evil, and very malicious. So when me and my husband were talking about it, we were like, maybe it’s taunting us? Or, telling us that it’s not finished with him?

Yeah, I would say that that would be my gut intuitive feeling. And blood magic is never generally done, with good intent. Oh, that’s really interesting. Do you have any?  I mean, I could see when you first started talking, Isaiah,  I could see how it, when you when you started talking about the smell, I could see the physical reaction. How it hit you. How it still affects you to this day. I can,

yeah – how horrific that must have been for you. Do you have any idea why you might have been singled out?

Isaiah: So there’s actually a pretty interesting story about this. And I don’t know if you have the time for me to tell that?

I absolutely do. Yeah.

Isaiah: OK. So like I said, my grandmother, my dad’s mom was the first Christian in her family.. And she was what we would call a prayer warrior. So she would pray. And she’s had one of the gifts of the spirit, of being the prayer warrior. And not a lot of, not a lot of people like her for that reason. What I was, what she was told. Was that the devil could not specifically hurt my grandmother. So, he was going to hurt her children to get to her. So, my dad had an experience with – He had a random cut in his stomach and was being chased by a black figure. We lived in Phoenix, Arizona. I was but a baby, not even a year old. My mom told me how he came home one day and was just freaking out, like almost schizophrenic. Looking outside the doors of the [inaudible due to interference] saying, they’re coming to get me, they’re coming to get me.

My dad was a huge alcoholic. And whenever, my mom was trying to feed me, you know,  my infant meal. My dad was like, don’t feel him that!  They poisoned it! They poisoned it! He’s  like they’re after me, they going to get me. So my mom didn’t have a vehicle.  Had one of her friends, I think a relative of hers, drove us all the way back to the reservation. It’s a six hour drive, in the dead of the night. And my dad was like, it’s following us! He’s running after us! He can he’s the only one that could see this.

He ended up at the church in Deinihootso. It’s an Assemblies of God church, Trinity Assembly of God. The pastor there, who is my grandfather. Not really my blood grandfather, but clan wise, my grandpa. All right. And they were praying for my dad. And they took him to the hospital not too long ago, not too long after that. And to the cops, cop,  Jesus – the doctor said that they did an X-ray on my dad and there was a cut in his stomach that was bleeding. And they don’t know how this cut happened?

Internally?

Isaiah: Internally, yes. And he was bleeding, and they couldn’t stop it. They said they couldn’t do anything about it. So my mom was praying. And the entire time she was praying for my dad, she didn’t eat, she didn’t sleep, she didn’t drink no water. But my dad would wake up every now and then from this. Like, from laying down, from his sleeping. And would point to my mom saying,  he’s standing right there! And he’s looking at me laughing, mocking. And my mom would go over there with the bible and she’ll start praying and he’s like, he’s over here now, and he’s over here, and over here.

And. I don’t remember exactly how,  I remember my mom sobbing and she said finally. And, it was really anticlimactic, but I can’t really remember what she said, but finally my dad snapped to.  And said, that he’s right there! And my Mom was like, in the name of Jesus, you devil, you get out of here. She said all those things. And my mom said there was like a rush of wind.  In a closed building, a rush of wind! And the window up on top, opened and something went out. They both felt it. Like a rushing wind, of something leaving. And my dad was like, he’s gone. You know, he left, because I close the window. So, my mom closed the window. The doctors came back to, I guess doing an evaluation on my dad. And the big cut that was in his stomach where he was bleeding was held. Just a fine line scar inside of his stomach.

That’s really interesting.

Isaiah: And he was discharged that day. And my dad became a Christian. And, you know, he still meddled with alcohol and whatnot, never really fully became submersed in Christianity. It wasn’t until years later that my dad became a pastor. And it’s kind of ironic, you know, my dad being a pastor. And before my grandmother passed away, my grandfather, who was the pastor of the church, was telling my grandmother, he’s like. Your son is going to be. A great man of God. But you won’t see , but you won’t live to see it. Whatever it was, was trying to stop it from happening by targeting you. But, they couldn’t do it. They failed to get you, so they went after your kids. And they knew that, I guess, my dad was to become a great man of God, so they tried to hit him. That failed.

And before my grandfather passed away, he looked at my Dad, and was like, they’re not done. Whatever it was, the couldn’t get, your gran, your mom. Try to get you, but couldn’t get you. And looked at my dad and said, they’re going to get your kids. Your kids are next. Anything they can do, to get you to break your faith with God. And your kids are next. So in my, in my way, when people say, do you know why you were specifically targeted? I personally believe whatever it was, was, trying to hurt me, to hurt my dad.

Right. So you feel it was like an intergenerational curse that had been placed on your family? And that’s not the first time I’ve heard about something like that, actually.

Isaiah: And the interesting part about it is, that if you go to my TikTok. There’s a Skinwalker story, about how they tried to get my grandmother.

Meo: Yeah, I was just about to mention that story.

Isaiah: Yeah, there’s a story on there. My wife, the one that told that story, it’s called  Maud’s story. Maud’s Skinwalkers story.

Meo: Although, we can talk about it here, too. I personally really like this story. It’s one of my favourites.

Isaiah: If you want, I can tell that story?

Yes. Please, please. Absolutely.

Meo: I want to tell it.

Isaiah: I know my wife wants to tell it.

Oh you two are so cute.

Meo: I guess it’s one of my favourite stories. I remember when he first told me the story, it literally gave me goosebumps. So, his grandma Maud, like my husband was saying, was a really, really powerful Christian, really big woman of God, a woman of faith. And she was going to a revival that was happening on the reservation, and usually it’s kind of a big thing, like during the summer. Like a lot of people will come, and it’s just the big tent outside. And you’ll have somebody giving a message. and people are invited up to give testimonials and stuff.

So my husband’s grandma was coming into the revival tent and somebody had recognized her as she was being –  She was in a wheelchair at the time, and she was being brought in. And she stood up and she was like, is that Maud Todachine?  And his grandma was looking around and she saw this lady. She’s like, yes, it’s me and this lady. She said, just talking. And she was like, I was sent after you

Isaiah: I was sent to kill you.

Meo: I was sent to kill you. So she ended up going into this big story about how – it’s actually very interesting, because we talked about this later. This is the same house that my husband had his Skinwalker story in. The very same house. And like I said, that streetlight that we were talking about where he saw the black figure? It’s very easy to spot where his grandma’s house is at because of that streetlight. So this lady who is talking to his grandma, Maude, told her that one night when they were sent after her, they were using that streetlight as a way to locate where the house was at.

So we were always told that Skinwalkers work in pairs. So it was this woman and another Skinwalker. They were sent after his grandma, and they said as they were coming up into Deinihootso, they saw this streetlight in the distance, in the distance. So they just started running towards it. And they said as soon as they got close enough to where the light was at,  it disappeared! So they would like look around and they would see the streetlight in a different location. So they would run after it again. But they said that the woman was saying that entire night those two Skinwalkers were unable to get to the house.

And before the sun ended up rising, they, they left that night. So they ended up coming back the next night. And this time they were able to get to the house. So as the two Skinwalkers, we’re walking up to the to the front door. The lady said that they saw this extremely handsome, like beautiful man, just dressed in white. Like, I think they described him as one of the most beautiful men they had ever seen. And as they’re walking up to the house, the man spoke to them, and he said that they were they were not going to enter that home.

And since he was at the front door, both of them decided to walk to the back of the house, and use the back door. But they said as they got to the back door again, this man popped up again. And this time he had a sword of flame. So he ended up drawing it out and he told them that they were not going to enter this home. And I believe they tried multiple ways, like windows and stuff, but the entire night they were never able to get into that house. And I don’t know how that woman came to become saved or how she ended up turning away from that life as a Skinwalker. But she ended up giving that testimony to his grandma.

And to me when I when he was telling me his story of his Skinwalker experience. I think it’s because that home was protected with that.  Like it was prayed for. And there is protection from his family, from people who love him. Friend and stuff like that. That’s why it wasn’t able to come into the home to, I don’t know? To do whatever it was trying to do to my husband.

That’s pretty cool. That’s really – That, that woman recognized your grandmother, and told her what was going on. Wow. That must have been an amazing feeling for your grandmother, actually.

Isaiah: Yeah, it was my Aunt’s actually the one that told me that story.  Because it was my Aunt, my Aunt Jeanette, was the one that was pushing my grandmother into the tent. The revival tent. And the house that all this took place in was my grandfather’s. He was a World War Two veteran,

Meo:  And he also has his own story of a Skinwalker. Kudos to him, because if you hear the story too, you’d say man, he was a huge badass, where the hell?

Isaiah: So he has his own, but yeah, all this took place and my aunt lives in that house now. And they don’t experience anything there, from what I’m told. I go back periodically to that home, but I’m not afraid to walk around outside.  I’m walking around outside still, you know? Because, a lot of people ask me, are you afraid to go out at night? Are you afraid to do this at night? And I always tell them, I’m like, no, my mom’s a pastor, my dad’s pastor. They got a direct line to Jesus and they pray. They pray to him and look after me. And I’m not the best of Christians, by any means. I’m not saying I’m better than anybody. But, I will pray, you know, when I’m walking around, I’ll say. You know, hey God, it’s little ole me here, just I ask for your protection. Put your blood upon me, and whatever it is that wants to cause evil or harm on me, may they fail. I’m in your hands. If whatever should happen happens, it’s your will. Whatever you want. There’s nothing I can do against it.

Meo: The thing I have with this is he provokes things, he goes after things. And he is always talking about how he has all these experiences, and he goes actively looking for stuff like this. Sometimes it’s aggravating because I don’t want to just leave it alone, but, he had to know why he has this this need to. I don’t know what it is exactly with him, but he always has to, to provoke or challenge things.

It’s the warrior, it’s the warrior is what it is.

Meo:  But, we do always get that question about why we talk about, why we talk about Skinwalkers? Because, it’s very taboo in our culture. Or, why we even share paranormal experiences if we believe in God and stuff like that? But I always knew me and my husband, are very different in our way of thinking. Going to be a little nerdy. But the quote I always use to kind of explain why we talk about it is from Harry Potter, where Dumbledore is talking about Voldemort.  And he says, ah,  fear of the name, increases fear of the thing itself. So for me, my husband talking about Skinwalker – the way they say, talking about Skinwalkers, very able – they’re able to know you’re talking about them. Or it gives them strength. It gives them power. I think fearing the name and fearing and talking about it, gives them more power than anything. So the way me, my husband feel about it is, you know, if we’re going to make this less taboo,, in a sense.  And we don’t want to give them any more control over our lives by fearing them, especially with a name.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I’m not part of your culture. I do come from a spiritual perspective. I’m not religious. But I am, I do believe in a higher power. And that attitude is a brilliant attitude to have. Fear, you cannot live in fear. That’s no life. And fear, living in fear is just giving them your power, you know? It’s just giving them your power. And it’s, so it’s a really great achievement. I can see. I can see for you both, how it must be such a clash of your traditional beliefs and your personal beliefs. But there’s no reason why there can’t be a blending of both, to a degree. It’s what you’re comfortable with us, isn’t it? It’s you know, that’s really amazing. So how long ago did this happen for you?

Isaiah: Two thousand and seventeen.

Oh? So it was fairly recent. And you’ve had nothing since?

Meo: As far as Skinwalkers, he hasn’t had any more experiences. And then we have had a few things here and there as far as –  like really no ghosts or spirits, whatever you want to call it? He has had some somethings happen, something with that.

Now, you know, that doesn’t surprise me at all. And the feeling that I get as sensitive, is that part of the reason you’re, targeted is because you have abilities, yourself.

Isaiah: Probably.

Hmm, hmm, and it’s a familial thing.

Meo: It’s kind of interesting, because, actually there is actually one thing I do want to mention with the Skinwalker story, too. So my husband really never fully explained how the black figure looked, do you remember? So he would always say, oh, it just looks like a big wolf. Or, a black wolf or something like that. And I was like, I just kind of left it like that. I thought he never told me before that it was like Smokey. Or, kind of like smoky, or see through and stuff like that. A week after we ended up seeing the Skinwalker video, his Skinwalker video, I ended up having a dream, which is really out of normal for me, was kind of like um. I was sleeping by myself in our , and my husband is out here in the living room.

And I had a dream that we were back home. I know it was on the reservation. I’m not quite sure where, but we were in our truck. And for whatever reason, there was an issue with our truck and we were pulling like a trailer. So we stopped and pulled up on the side of the road. And I was standing in front of the headlights, just kind of looking around, as he was checking out what was wrong with the vehicle. And when I turned around, just in my peripheral vision, I saw this silhouette of. I don’t say like a wolf, but it was like a large dog, like black, but I could see the light from the headlights streaming through it. So it wasn’t completely solid. It was like –  what I explained it as. It was like a smoke, almost.

Like a shadow?

Meo: Pretty much. And I was trying so hard to yell to my husband, because, it was watching him. It was only watching him. And I was trying so hard to yell for my husband. And I, I felt like I wasn’t making any noise or any sounds, but it ended up turning and facing me!  So it walked up to me, and this thing is huge. I remember, because we have a truck. And just the shoulders were like the almost level, with the hood of the vehicle. And when it came up to me, its head, I remember it stopped like, right in front of me. And I was paralyzed. Like, I couldn’t move. Couldn’t scream or anything. And not long after that, I ended up waking up. And it took me like a moment, to kind of get my bearings right.

So, I ended up coming straight back out here. And I asked my husband, I was like, could you explain what you saw again that night? So that’s when he started going more in depth of his description, of the what, he had seen that night. No, actually, no, I didn’t ask you yet. I ended up telling him. I was like, I was like this thing you saw that night. I was like, was it like this big? Was it like see through? Like you could see light though it almost, like, kind of like, opaque, and stuff like that? Like, I was explaining it to him and he was like yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s it!  I like before that we’d never really gone into depth with the description of how it looked. But it was weird that what I had seen in my dream, was what he had experienced. Or, what he had seen with that Skinwalker experience. It was, yeah, that was strange for us, I guess.

Isaiah: My wife isn’t one to really have really bad dreams, and really get scared of them. But, she came out and she was scared. And I could, I could just see it in her. And I was like, what happened? I was like, did you have a dream, a bad dream? Yeah, I was such a weenie, is what I said to her. And then, that’s when she started to describe what I saw that night, and I was like, yeah, yeah! That’s literally what I saw! And she’s like, I just. And she told me the dream. And I was like. This thing’s not done.

Meo: A lot of people ask us if we have experiences here since we live in Oklahoma, away from the Navajo Nation. But, what we were always, I guess what I was told about Skinwalkers is usually they’re tied

To that area?

Meo: to the Four Corners area. So we always have like, oh, what if when you go back, you know, that things start back up again? Is it because we’re off the reservation, these experiences aren’t happening anymore? So it’s kind of sucks because all our families back in Arizona on the reservation. So, you know, it’s unfortunate that it’s kind of one of those things that’s like, oh, gosh, what’s going to happen next?

It must be a bit anxiety creating for you or Meo? Not so much for you, Isaiah, because you’re just, you know, brave it out. But for you, it must create anxiety?

Meo: Yeah, it definitely does. And I always tell him not to provoke things and just to leave it alone. But he never does. And we always have talks about this stuff, too. I’ve had weird like dreams that have, I don’t know? Like I’ve had people try to interpret my dreams and stuff, like that. It’s kind of one of the main things that is for me. But, my sister was talking with my Grandma, after we had

posted the Skinwalker story. Kind of I was expecting to be reprimanded, to be honest. Because, like I said, it’s a taboo subject and we don’t talk about this very often. But, my grandma was telling, telling, my sister that we do come from a long line of Hand Tremblers, the Medicine Woman. So she would say, even though I didn’t learn that, we still have that on our female side. So, after my sister had mentioned that, maybe that’s why I ended up having that dream where I could describe what my husband had seen?

Can you please, sorry to interrupt. Can you please explain what a Hand Trembler is? Like, in New Zealand, in the Māori culture, I come from a long line of Matakite. That’s people who have sight. People who are spiritual, sensitive. And can see spirit, and stuff like that.

Meo: So, unfortunately, because I was raised in a Christian household, I don’t have like a deeper understanding of it. My parents didn’t really teach , as far as like what Medicine Men, and Medicine Woman do. But, my understanding of Hand Trembling, the way my dad explained it to me, just in basic terms. Was it’s almost like a crystal gazer. But instead of like having a crystal in front of you, usually they work with them. They can work with like ashes or phones.

Ah, so it’s like a form of divination?

Meo: Yes. So what he told me they would do, is they would lay a hand over the person they’re doing the ceremony for. And as they’re doing that, they’ll do like, whatever they need to and they’ll get the messages. I guess through the ashes, or, through the bones, or whatever they’re working with?

So that actually is more like, they’re feeling energy. So that’s like a clair – there’s a term for that, clairsentience.

Meo: That’s a better way, because my grandma, when she was learning how to do this.  Or, get this ability from my great, ah my yeah, my great grandmother. She would explain the feeling she would get. She, it was too much for her. She did. She felt like she wasn’t in control of that. And it scared her, which is why she told my great-grandmother she didn’t want to do it. Which is why my great-grandmother became the last person in my female line to be a hand trembler.

Right. OK, so it puts a whole different spin on it for me. Like, from a non-,cultural perspective, I would say that you probably have that ability, and it’s a spiritual gift.

Meo: Well, please don’t tell me that.

But you know what, there’s a lot of –  I get a lot of people in my group who have spiritual abilities, but they scare them. And generally the thing that scares them, is that they feel, that they will have no control, if they allow themselves to acknowledge this gift. But, you come from a Christian perspective. And so I would say to you, would your God, not give you gifts to help other people? He provides, these are gifts that he’s given you.  And from that perspective, gifts are given –  Like these sort of gifts are not given for us. Our abilities are given to help others. To help heal, you heal them.  To help counsel them. Because doesn’t God work through us?

Meo: Yes, where that conflict arises. Is because, I was always taught like that’s a form of witchcraft, I guess. Well, I was always raised to believe, though, going into that, or wanting to look in, more in depth of what a Hand Trembler does. Or, Medicine Men and Women do. It’s, I’ve always been like, that’s not something we do, because that’s a form of witchcraft.

Ah yeah. And I understand that perspective because I, I have a sister who’s a minister and that was what she was always taught. But she also has these gifts and is not until she got into her late sixties, that she finally accepted that this is who she is. And that it was actually a gift and not, you know, because she’s as religious – Her and her husband, are ministers, they’ve been ministers for like fifty, fifty years. But I look at it as, it’s an inherent natural ability that everybody has.  Like, you get Meo, you get quite strong gut feelings about things.

Meo: If only he would listen.

Yeah, and that’s, that’s, you know – you can call it intuition. You can call that gut feeling, but it’s part and parcel of that gift. And that’s not evil. It’s not. And understand, I’m not trying to downplay your religious beliefs, at all.  And please don’t get that idea, but I hear this so many times. And in fact, in my own personal life, it took me years to overcome the religious guilt.  That I was going to go to hell, because I had these abilities, and I would had to be evil. Like no, no, no. I know I’m not evil.

Isaiah: You’re not.

Meo: I think that’s where that conflict comes, because I have a curiosity of what they did or what they do. But, what I was always told was from my brother-in-law. Because, like I said, he was –  This is the one that explained the drawing, the symbol. So his, his, male side, they are what they call Roadmen. That’s the one that interpret the symbols and stuff like that. So what I was always told was a hint.  You, if you have somebody who is targeting you like Skinwalker or anything like that, you would go to see a Hand Trembler first. Because, if it’s some kind of hex, or I guess that’s the best way I can explain it? Like a hex,

Yeah, like a spell, right.

Meo: or some kind of like a –  I guess almost like voodoo? Where they use like these kind of bundles, so they’re causing ailments and stuff like that for you. They’re able to find the location of where that’s at, like the bundles and stuff like that. They can give you directions on where to find it so you can get rid of it.

So, so.  I’m sorry. So what they do is they track the energy back?

Meo: Pretty much. Another thing that I was hoping to do, because, one of my good friends from high school, her grandmother was a hand trembler as well. So, people would come to her if they were having pains and stuff like that. And from what I was told, is that, when she’s practicing, she’ll find bone fragments. So, a lot of times when they talk about Skinwalkers causing ailments or targeting people, they use bone fragments. And they say ,like they will put it into like this – It’s like the, like into the body basically. So, like, if somebody is having, like, headaches, maybe they’ll have something like in the base of the head. Or, like shoulder pain, like they’ll find bone fragments there, remove it and stuff like that.

And then with my brother in law, with the roadmen, usually they’re the ones that perform ceremonies like the Anaa’jí ceremony or protection ceremonies. So after you are, have seen like the Hand Trembler, usually you can go to get one of the ceremonies and from the Medicine men. And yeah, that’s the medicine woman and the medicine that you would see.

It’s really interesting. So how – Overall, how has left you feeling, both of you? How do you feel now?

Isaiah: About?

About the whole situation.

Isaiah: Talking about it brings back the experience of it. As far as letting it control me and being afraid of things? No. I’m still going to be the same person that’s going to be walking around at three o’clock, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere.

Yeah, good for you!

Isaiah: I’m not scared. I, like I tell most people, now, I’m not brave. I’m not some person who’s claims to be, you know, unafraid of anything., I do feel fear. But, I don’t let that fear control me. I push that aside. And when I get scared, I get angry. When I get mad, it’s like I had no control over it. And that’s the part that takes over. And I want to confront whatever it is. And it’s kind of dumb because it’s like spiritual. Like am I going to do it, you know? But, that’s just me. But, I don’t know I don’t know.

Meo: I will say going on with this, he has tried to kick a shadow figure before.

Isaiah: Yeah.

So you, you’ve seen shadow figures as well?

Meo: He has

Isaiah: My wife and I first started dating and I was sleeping in her room with her. And I like to sleep towards the door, because, if there was something that was to come into the house. It’s got to deal with me first it gets to my wife.

Oh, that’s sweet.

Isaiah: So I would sleep and my feet was off the edge of the bed. And I woke up randomly. And at the foot of the bed, right by my foot, there was this tall. Black figure, just watching us. And the moment I woke up and looked at it, and realized what it was. I threw my foot to kick it and I, I try to get up and try to be ready for a fight, you know. And my wife woke up and looked at me

Meo: I woke up when he was mid-kick, and I looked at him. And, I was like, what are you doing? And he was like, did you see it? Did you see it? And like, no, like, what are you kicking for? And he was like there was a shadow of the guy watching us at the edge of the bed. And I didn’t see it. But him. Yeah, I literally woke up and he was mid-kick. That was a strange thing to me and it just disappeared.

And, it just disappeared.  Did you ever see it again?

Isaiah: No.

It was just a one off.

Meo: We really don’t have, like, too many stories of, like apparitions or shadow people too much, but. For me, I guess what I usually hear –  Something interesting, I hear you talk about is feelings, feelings or sounds, and we talk about –  this getting so off topic from the Skinwalker.

Hey, it doesn’t matter. I’m happy to go wherever you want to go. Honestly, this is so interesting.

Meo: So when my husband was in the Marine Corps, he didn’t know –  First of all, that he didn’t believe me. And he’s the one that always has the weird experiences. So we had just gotten married and I moved out to North Carolina and this was our first home living together. And he was constantly working. He was either gone for a week, or two weeks, a month, things like that. Because, he was getting ready for a deployment. So, I always tell people it was like I was living alone. But, at that time we had one cat. We had probably only been living there for maybe a month or two? We were, I was sleeping in the dining room because we were poor. We didn’t have that much furniture.

And I remember my cat was walking into the living room and from where I was at, on our mattress in the dining room, I could clearly see him. And he is a very chill cat, doesn’t react anything. Dogs like didn’t faze him, being like that. He’s very chill. And that was the first time I had ever seen him react, to where his hair was standing up. And he was staring at something under the stairs. And I feel so bad about this. I pulled him back and I was just sitting in the dining room with my husband, was supposed to be back the next day. I thought maybe I had just imagined the entire situation. So I put my cat back in the living room. First thing he did was his  hair was standing back up again. He’s looking at the same place on the staircase. So, I end up packing up my cat and we stayed at his work, until he came back the next morning.

But since then, it was kind of like a feeling in that house, that something at the top of the landing was there. And I would tell my husband this often. Because when we finally moved upstairs to the master bedroom, I would leave a crack in the door, because so my cats, my cats can go in and out. So we ended up having two cats at that time. And there was always a feeling that something was watching me through that little crack in the door, and it was just a super unsettling feeling.  But, it wasn’t until finally

Isaiah: Before we get to that, we had with my wife and I, we used to argue a lot.

Meo: We had argument and

Isaiah: We had an argument. And I want to go sleep in the spare room, which is right across from the main room. So my wife was sleeping in there and there was no furniture in the spare room, just carpet. So I went in there.

Meo: He was sleeping on the floor.

Isaiah: I was sleeping on the floor. And I had the blanket and I was laying there. And I was so mad at my wife. It was in the middle of the night. The door opened. And I was just lying there and I was like, I was like, man, what does she want? You know? I was like, I’m not going to talk to her. I’ll just ignore her. So I remember just lying there, facing towards the wall.

Meo: He covered his head.

Isaiah: Yeah. I covered my head because I don’t want to talk to her. But something walked. You can hear it and you can just feel the presence of it. And they just stop. And it was just standing there. And I was laying there having,  half expecting my wife to be like, hon, hon, hon, you know, nagging me until she finally gets a response from me. But nothing! This thing just stood there. And they just turned around and walked back out! The next morning. . .

Meo: Actually, no. He didn’t mention this being for a while. The next morning he was still mad, so he didn’t bring it up. It wasn’t until we actually had moved out of that house. And he was like, remember that night you were having an argument. I slept in the spare bedroom. I was like, yeah, of course. So he was like, did you come to check on me? And I was like, no. I was like, I never bothered you that night. I didn’t want to talk to you either. And he was like, that’s when he told me about the whole thing. About he heard somebody opened the door, walked towards him, stand right there, and then heard them leave. And he is like, are you sure? Like, you were trying to talk to me and bother me. And I was like, no, like it wasn’t me, but after,  because he that whole time, he thought it was me.

And we had never spoken about it until after we left the house. And the time he finally believed me was, we had another argument.  I went to go stay with a friend of mine about an hour away. So, the cats were with him and he was home alone. And he was getting ready to go out into the field again for about a week. So, the amount of gear he had probably equates to  like eighty pounds of gear. And he had it at the top of the stairs. And so this is like the landing in the stairs going down.

So we had a warrant here and it was all pushed up against the wall. So he went to go take a nap, before his friend came over to take him to their worksite. And maybe like thirty minutes after he had fallen asleep, everything came tumbling down. And his first instinct was maybe it was the cats. So he went looking for the cats and they were hiding behind the water heater. But like when we were talking about it after that had happened, it was like, how would they have moved eighty pounds worth of gear down the stairs? And that was funny. Like, he’s going like, oh, maybe my wife was right about something being here, because, there was like weird, weird things, just the feeling and stuff like that.

And the house was just really, it started turning oppressive almost. And I used to tell him that I think whatever it was, there was more attached to him, than it was me. Because, I didn’t really feel like that oppressive energy or anything like that. But he started having more of a mental change, which was like the reason why we had so many arguments.

Right. Sounds like he was influencing your behaviour. That’s very interesting.

Isaiah: So another thing my wife failed to mention, was the first thing that rolled down was the gear. There was also my seabag. That had more gear after the bag rolled, after the my gear went rolling down the stairs, I went looking for the cats because my initial thought was they was right. But the cats were downstairs with me, hiding behind our water heater, In a secluded area.

Meo: And they were like, freaked out.

Isaiah: Yeah, they were scared. And I was like, why are they hiding? So, this time it was night time. It was night and I went walking back to the front. And that’s when my seabag, comes flying down the stairs. Boom! Hits the landing. I called my friend. I was like bro, pick me up. I am not staying in this bitch.

Meo: And then I came back thirty minutes later, failed to mention any of this, and I stayed in the house alone.

That’s awful!

Meo: So what’s interesting, was that Houseman’s –  Because his uncle was always, he always had cats around him. And he would always say that cats can see spirits or spirits. They were not evil.

Yes, they absolutely do.

Meo: So we had two cats at that time. Like I was saying. All the time they would lay on top of me. One would lay on my legs, and the other would just be on my chest. And that’s how they slept almost every single night. So I would wake up in the morning and those two would be on top of me. It wasn’t until we moved away from that house and moved back to Arizona, when he deployed. I was living with my him, my family. And my cats, they never slept on top of me again. It was really interesting because I told them that, too. And I was like, I think they knew something was there, because after I got back home to Arizona, they would never sleep on top of me anymore, so . . .

Yeah, cats are very sensitive and are very protective. I had a similar sort of incident here in my house. I’m very sensitive to energy. And I was sitting here in my office working on podcast actually, and it got really, really cold, really cold. And I thought, oh, it’s just getting cold because I was winter. So you know, I just assumed it was the cold. And my cat who was in here with me, walked out to my kitchen, just through the door over there and came back. And I didn’t think anything of it. And it just got icy cold. The cold that just goes right through you. And the cat went back out to the kitchen again, and it started hissing. Now, I’ve had this cat for five or six years. I’ve never once heard it hiss.  It was standing out there, heckles fully up hissing  at whatever was standing in my kitchen. And that’s when I realized that I had a negative entity in my home, and I got rid of it.  And as soon as I got rid of it, the cat went back to normal.

And yeah, cats are definitely, definitely spiritual protectors and they were obviously protecting you. How wonderful is that? Look, I’m really aware it’s getting very late where you guys are. You must be getting tired.? Can I just ask you one more question? You say that Star People are quite an integral part of your culture. You know, aliens, extra-terrestrials?

Meo: Oh, oh, we have so many stories.  We could talk about them too.

The reason I say that is because I’ve been an experiencer my entire life, of Star People.

Isaiah: Like I said early on, from what I said about us not being able to go outside. And to stay inside when it’s dark.. Extra-terrestrial? Yes. Have we had encounters with them? Yes. Are there stories of our past, and our history long into our ancient. Yes. We were always told  – when I went I didn’t live well when I was back home on the reservation, I was living in the New Mexico part of the reservation in a little town called Crown Point. I had a friend out that way. Like I said, she’s the one that was telling me about the Skinwalkers being used to hunt game.

Her family, it was really traditional. And there’s a mesa in Crown Point, that is notorious for having lights. Having objects there and she has a grandmother that lives by this ,this little ridge Butte area. And, she was always told as a kid by her grandmother and her grandmother was always told as a kid, by her grandmother, that when you see these lights go inside, you don’t bother it. You don’t interact with it, you just let it be sure. Maybe a sheep cattle horse may be gone and disappeared, but that’s fine. They would always say, go inside. Don’t bother it. If you don’t, we don’t. You know it in Navajo term, it’s Yíiyáh, which means scare, scary. Or which is t’áado, don’t bother it. You just leave it or they don’t talk about it.

Meo: Or they don’t talk about it.

Isaiah: Yeah. Just don’t talk about it! Just don’t! Just don’t! So, my hometown, my mom has a UFO story and not just her. There’s actually a lot of people in the community that saw this big, oval, football looking object that went over our community. And when my mom told me that story, I was like, yeah, right. So I went around and asked a few people in our community. But yeah, we saw the brightest day in the middle of the night. This big football object flew over, hung around and then vanished. And there’s stories of such things happening long before modern world with Native Americans.

Meo: Yeah, so one of the things – we were talking about monument valley earlier, so we have a lot of old petroglyphs. Yeah, right. So one of the stories I was always told is they would call them sky people. So we were told that at some point, I don’t know if it was our tribe specifically, or maybe the Anasazi? But they had help from these people, the sky people. So they’re actually handprints that are on –  we have sheer cliffs. If you look at the buttes from monument valley, they’re very sheer, some of the drops. And there have been handprints almost in the middle of these buttes. And it’s like, how would people back then? Would they suspend themselves or would they build a ladder? Like, it doesn’t really make any sense why these handprints would just appear right in the middle of these cliff faces? And wow, like what is the purpose of it and who did it? Just something we don’t know. But it’s just really interesting to know that these things exist, and we can’t fathom how they even got there?

Isaiah: And it goes into seeing about  – A lot of people are pretty, I’m pretty sure a lot of people familiar with Anasazi, the lost tribe of the Southwest?  

Meo: I did mention we had a story about this too.

Isaiah: I have a story about the Anasazi, and I want to post it on TikTok,  but just not yet. The Anasazi were the traditional tribe. Ancient.  Long, long before, long. Been around that area, long before our tribe had been there. Long before the Apache. Been there longer than any other tribe that has been there. No one knows what happened to them? We do have the clan system for Anasazi, but in modern world now, even long before modern world, that clans dead. It doesn’t exist. No one bears that clan or anything, not even just us, Apache, Hopi, Pueblo, Zooni. We have  a couple of other Southern tribes, I don’t remember their names Yavapai, northern. They have similar clans for Anasazi. But no one – It’s gone! It’s an extinct clan.

Meo: A lot of people like to theorize that maybe they just kind of integrated with the other tribes in the area. But like my husband was saying, for the Navajo, for us,  like we don’t know what happened to them.  As far as the Hopi, the Apache, like the other surrounding tribes in the southwestern region, nobody really knows what happened to them. But, the artifacts and things that were left behind, for us specifically, and I know it is the same for a couple of the other neighbouring tribes with us is, we don’t touch their stuff. It’s cursed, we would say.

Isaiah: The funny part about that too, is their ancestral homeland. Nobody lives there. There’s no one that occupies their ancestral home.

Meo: So they’re known as the cliff dwellers, so, yeah so like a lot of the very popular homes, almost like adobe-looking homes that are carved into the cliffs. That’s usually the Anasazi, but a lot of natives don’t –  It’s kind of interesting. It’s kind of like we’re talking about that conflict of a Christian upbringing, but still learning tradition, and culture, and stuff like that. Even though me and my husband were raised Christian households, we were still brought up that if you see like, anything that belonged to the Anasazi. Like pottery, arrowheads, things like that, or their dwellings, like not to go in there because their, it’s cursed.

Isaiah: And I actually have a story of being a kid growing up and taking a piece of pottery. So would you like to hear it?

I’d love to hear it, please.

Isaiah: So, I lived in a small town called Lukachukai Bay community. Ah Lukachukai, Arizona. We went to boarding schools, community schools and stuff like that. And not a lot of Native Americans at the time had degrees, to become teachers at these schools. So a lot of the teachers were non-native, white mostly, that would come and teach at these schools. So, the story I’m about to tell you is about such teachers, two of them. that befriended my parents, through, because they were Christian as well. And there was no actual Christian church in Lukachukai that was Pentecostal. So my family, those teachers would get together every Sunday and have service.

Meo: Oh, that’s kind of interesting, since we’re talking about pottery, I think on one of your other podcasts about the Skinwalker, one of the ladies picked up some pottery. That’s actually what it made me think of. And I didn’t associate that with that Skinwalker. But I think to me, that’s why I said we’re within lines of picking up something that belongs to the Anasazi.

Right. And she saw what she saw big owl as well, or something?

Meo: So, yeah. So Owls actually, in Navajo, actually, the owls are bad omens. They’re messengers. And usually if you see it during the day, people will say it’s usually a sign of death. Or, like somebody in your family, close relative. or things like that. is possibly going to pass soon, and things like that. Same with the coyote crossing your path. Very. I don’t agree with them,  I think they just animals. But, a lot of people are very superstitious, superstitious still about things like that.

Isaiah: OK, so anyway. Back to my Anasazi story. I was a third grader and this was, I think around two-thousand-two, two-thousand-three era? We lived in a small town in Lukachukai Arizona, which is border of New Mexico, Arizona. Right along the Tucsa mountains area. These teachers were non-native, they moved there to teach at this middle school. And our families got together for Sunday services because there was no church, but they held their own services in their own home.

So they wanted – one of the teachers were very outdoorsy, like I’m talking about having the hiking boots, but the shirts and the really high shorts and what not, and glasses. But so, they were big into hiking, exploring. And, they were like, is there any nice places? Because, they wanted to see some of these,  these cliff dwellings and stuff like that. Like my wife said, mentioned earlier. We from what my parents thought, we went to a place called Zuni, Zuni, Arizona. My dad said he thought that this cliff area. belonged to a Navajo tribe, because, we did do cliff dwelling as well. We were taught that by the Anasazi. If you go to one of our hiding places that we did for the United States, when we were at war with them. Canyon De Chelly has quite a few cliff dwellings. Navajo mountain has quite a few of them, and a couple of other places. But, we were taught that we learned it from them.  And my dad thought this place was belonged to a Navajo tribe, but it wasn’t.

We got there. We started exploring around and my dad knew where we were and was like, uh uh, no, you know? And I was a little kid and I knew about the stories, and what not. But there was this pottery I found on the floor, had sand on it. I  kind of brushed it away and it just looked so pretty. The design on it was just it caught my attention, and my eye. And it looked so nice. And, I don’t want to say anything to anybody. I picked up the pottery. I put it in my pocket.

At the end of the trip, we went back home. and I was just so fascinated by this thing. And that’s the first time I saw a shadow figure. Watching me. And as the days went by, I didn’t tell anybody about this thing, I started seeing this shadow figure more frequently. It would run by. It would just stand there and stare at me. And I was wondering why I was doing that? And I was getting scared of it, not knowing what it was. And then I finally told my older brother, he’s a year older than me, what I had. And the first thing he did is, he just looked at me and said, you’re stupid. He was getting mad at me, smacked me behind the head, and  you know, was like, getting really upset with me.

So him finally convincing me to tell my mom what I had.  I told my mom, and after a pretty substantial beating, I was shunned, for doing that. And I remember we went back to where I picked this thing up. And we offer, offerings. Like tobacco, sage and a couple of other things. And I had to apologize. I put it back where I found it, exactly where I found it.  I put it back, covered it back up, and we left. And I’ve never seen one of those little figures, shadow figures ever again.

Wow, did when you saw the figure, did it scare you? Was it scary, oppressive feeling?

Isaiah: Yeah. If it wouldn’t be close. It would be far. And they would just stand there and stare at me. And I so I would look and I would like look around and see to get someone’s attention to see if they could see what I was seeing. But, by the time I would look back, it was gone.  I would be laying in my house, not my house, but my parent’s house. I’ll be laying in my room and I will look down the hallway and I would see it run across. And it was letting me know that it was there right until I returned. It offered up offerings, and apologized. And I never saw it again.

Wow, That’s very cool. And it’s well, it’s the first one I’ve heard from your area. I have heard in other parts of the world, like in Hawaii, when they take stones from the volcano, they have bad luck, and stuff like that. So they, the –  I’m not sure what department it is there? But, they keep getting these letters sent back to them, with stones in them. That people have taken as souvenirs, because they’ve had bad luck, or bad issues. So that’s not uncommon.

Meo: Interesting that you mention that, because when he says he saw a little shadow person. We have stories about little shadow people that my mom told me before, is that they’re very mischievous. And if you don’t offer them when you see them, when I was told that you’re supposed to give them an offering of food. And usually if you offer food, they’ll leave you alone. But if you don’t, I’ll give you bad luck. So that’s kind of interesting that you mention bad luck.

Oh, that is interesting. That’s really cool. Well, look, oh I could speak to you guys for hours. You’re just so interesting. And, but I’m so aware, that we’ve been talking for nearly two and a half hours now. And I know it’s really late there,  because it’s half past 7:00 at night here in New Zealand. So it must be like nearly three o’clock in the morning there. Yeah. So I’m going to, I’m going to end this now. But look thank you both so very much for coming on our show today and sharing your experiences with us. It’s been a really interesting, and a learning conversation for me. I know I’ve learnt a lot from both of you and I’m sure that my listeners will have as well.

Now, before we do close, you’re on TikTok. Can you perhaps give my listeners your social media names so they can follow you and check you out themselves?

Isaiah: Yes, my name on TikTok is Rez_neck_vet, that’s rez underscore neck underscore vet. My Instagram is located on my desktop page too. If you click on the Instagram Icon, they’ll take you to my Instagram page. And if you cannot find me, my profile picture is a Native American with Nicolas Cage’s face on it. And the other name for it is Cheii Cage, that’s Cheii cage. So if you looked those up, you’ll be able to find me.

I’m assuming that the Nicolas Cage, that the Nick Cage has a significance to it?

Isaiah: No, no, not really. I just saw Nicolas Cage looking like a native and I thought that would be really funny, too, because he’s a white person with a native [inaudible]. I thought it would be hilarious to use that as my profile picture. A lot of people are like, is that Nicolas Cage? I’m like yes it is. I tell them this my grandfather.  And they’re like, what?  I go, he’s not really my grandfather.

I have to confess, I never noticed that when I saw the picture. I’m going to have to go back and have a look at it now.

Isaiah: But, yeah, go look at it. It’s funny.

And how about you, Meo?

Meo: I think, same thing. You can just follow me on my husband’s Instagram, I think at this point we’ve kind of been telling both of our stories on their stuff. Anything else we have on there where they follow my husband and he can have a listen.

I know I look forward to your little updates that you put out. I’m really enjoying Tick-Tock. I have to say, my kids think it’s hilarious that I’m on it because I’m so old , and I’m on it.  But yeah, it’s really cool So I’m really glad I came across you both. It’s been a really awesome conversation. Thank you so much for your time. I know it’s close to three a.m. where you are, so I really appreciate your staying up this late to talk to my listeners. And I thank you so much for your time.

Isaiah: Thank you, I appreciate it.

Meo: Thank you for having us.

I want to thank Meo and Isaiah, for sharing their experiences with us all. Especially since they stayed up so very late – or rather so early in the morning so we could have our conversation. I understand that for them to share what they have, openly and so publicly, actually is a very brave thing to do. I appreciate them immensely, and also really enjoyed listening to them and seeing them interact together. They are a very cute, young couple. And I absolutely wish them all the best in their continuing journey to help educate us all on this subject.

Coming up next episode, I have a most interesting UFO case. One that my guest was involved in as a child, when a UFO crashed in the swamp behind his Mum’s and his Aunt’s homes way out in the country. How his Mum was threatened by the military and government officials who turned up, to clean all the debris. and take the ship. This is a fascinating story. One you won’t want to miss.

This episodes bumper music is called Native American Spirit, I love the native flute in it. Such a beautiful tone.

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