This episode came about quite unintentionally as I was researching the Patupaiarehe episode. A gentleman’s name kept popping up in my search results. Finally, I took the hint that spirit/universe, or whatever term you wish to use, was throwing in my face, literally with every search for information on NZ fairy folk, his name was there. I looked at his website and got his contact details…. Took a deep breath and thought, well, the worst he can do is not respond. I sent him a tentative email, asking if I could possibly interview him for this episode, and honestly, this was the first time I was ever nervous about reaching out to someone to appear on this podcast.

Sometimes there are people who touch our lives in ways, they may not even know about. Today’s guest is one such person. I first heard about this gentleman back in the late 80’s here in NZ and his words had a profound influence on the way I began to look at certain aspects of life here in this beautiful country.

For many years he was a regular contributor to a now defunct NZ magazine called Rainbow News, which was a spiritual, sort of new age type magazine that I used to devour eagerly, not because I believed in everything, or even actually most that was written in there, but because some of the articles resonated deeply with me. It was from that magazine that I first learned about the still relatively little known, Kaimanawa wall, deep in the middle of the Kaimanawa state forest.

I really enjoy his work. He often gives me pause for thought. He has delved into so many of the subjects that my own personal path was walking, before I even knew of him. A very, deeply spiritual man – both in touch with himself and with all aspects of nature around us. I am very excited to be walking into this part of the New Zealand shadowlands with this gentleman as our guide this time….  So, let’s begin our journey.

Many New Zealanders have at the very least heard of the gentleman who will be my guest for this episode, and for further ones in the near future. This gentleman is regarded by some as a bit of a controversial figure, not least because of his views on how NZ was settled prior to the arrival of the Maori in their great waka or canoes. Sometimes his opinions can really polarise the views of many people. I simply enjoy him and admire his personal strength and ability to shrug off all the more negative comments people have thrown his way over the years, including death threats he and his wife have received in the past – because his life’s work and research is absolutely not regarded as mainstream in the least.

So I am so excited to say that my guest is Gary Cook…. I was so very thrilled when he responded to my email request and very quickly as well, within in only a day or two. He suggested that we first have a chat on the phone. I think he needed to suss me out and make sure that I was on the level, and to get a feel of where my head and energies were at in all of this. We arraigned a time to chat on the phone and honestly, I was so nervous before I phoned him. I have never felt like this before with anyone I have spoken with to date, but immediately he put me at ease and I felt comfortable, like I was chatting with a very old friend.

So we organized a date the following week to formally have a conversation, and these episodes are the result. Very timely also, to be able to close off the NZ cryptid, and more particularly the Patupaiarehe episodes, because as you will all hear, Gary has had his own encounters with these beings.

An internationally known author, speaker, and documentary maker, Gary Cook is a leading writer on the special nature of the mystic realms that are to be found in New Zealand. He has has devoted many years of searching and writing of the wonders to be found within the islands of New Zealand and the South Pacific. His extensive journeys and experiences allow him to share much of the deeper nature of the forests, the waters and the mountains that allows us all to connect with the natural order in a deeper and more meaningful way.

The author of two books in the Secret Land series, and others…. Gary is a regular contributor to Australian and New Zealand magazines offering readers unique glimpses of the sacred landscape of Aotearoa. He is a regularly requested speaker at conferences both here in NZ and overseas. He has also created a number of documentaries and dvd recording the songs of trees, plants, and pounamu or greenstone:

Gary says:

My journey into our past has taken me into the land in ways that have surprised me. I have touched the stone and the waters and in turn been touched by them, traced the outline of ancient carved symbols with the tips of my fingers and been moved and been taken beyond the story to the spirit that is of this land, of its past, of its many people of yesteryear, and now… Thus do the ancestors speak and thus are they honoured when we stand still and listen. 

Gary Cook

Marianne: Thank you so much for agreeing to do this Gary, I’m really excited about this and I’ve been eagerly looking forward to our conversation since we last spoke.

Gary: Oh that’s lovely Marianne, I thank you very much for the invitation to join one of your programs.

I was actually saying to my partner that I was actually really nervous about speaking with you when I initially contacted you, and I think it’s probably because I’ve actually followed you for so many years, from the Rainbow News magazine days, and wasn’t it you that wrote the article on the Kaimanawa wall?

Yes it was! And that was virtually one of the first articles I wrote for Rainbow News, and I think about nineteen-ninety-eight, or nineteen-ninety-nine. So, that’s twenty years ago.

Yeah, I’ve been following you since then, yeah… and that was quite significant to me in my spiritual journey that Kaimanawa wall article. It opened a lot of things for me, so yeah – you were a bit of a mentor, even though you don’t know me from a bar of soap. I’ve learned so much from you over the years, so this is really exciting to me. I told the members of my Walking the Shadowlands FB group that I was going to be speaking with you and there was a lot of excitement around that. So you have quite a huge following of people who are aware of you and your work.

That’s interesting, the fact that it seems to have gone on for so long, ‘cause, I wrote a series of eighty-four articles over twelve years for Rainbow News. Then of course, Rainbow News had to finish and that was quite a few years ago, so it’s interesting how it still keeps flowing on Marianne. And…. Which is wonderful, because, as I always maintained when I was writing for Rainbow, and I often said to folks in my articles…. I’m doing this for you, but I can’t do it all for you!

What I’m doing is sewing the seeds and if I go to places – ‘cause, in those days my wife Raewyn and myself were doing a lot of exploring around NZ and ancient sites. So I was saying, if we can do this, so can you. So get off the couch, or off the easy chair, and grab map, and go out and have a look. So, I was always trying to incite people to, to action. To get out and do it for themselves, but….

And also Marianne, I also maintained that everything that I learned, and everything that we saw and observed, and made a comment on. That we shared it openly with people. Nothing is to be kept secret and kept close. Sometimes we were given little stories by local Maori people, and things like that. And, which they said, can you keep this close? Which we did of course. We honoured that.

So, it was a very expansive time in my life, and it’s just a wonder that I was able to write for twelve years continuously for Rainbow. And funny thing, I’m just going over old articles and the moment and thinking, oh my gosh, I’ve got amazing podcast material myself! So there we are! I’m quite enlightened by what you’re doing, and I just love what you’re doing with podcasts and your background, as we discussed the other day. So, I’m going to learn a lot from you too!

I always am of the opinion, it should be a win/win for both parties in any encounter.  And we learn from each other. That’s always been my attitude my entire life. It may be nice for my overseas and some NZ & Aussie listeners, and I have a lot of listeners in the states, who perhaps may not be as familiar with you and your work – to have an understanding of how you started in this field? And how you came to be where you are today?

Well, it’s a big, big story actually Marianne, and I hope we’ve got enough time here?

Absolutely, plenty of time, even if I have to make this into a couple of episodes.

Ok, ok, oh that’s fine! So I guess my journey as such, started as a very, very young person. For those of you who know NZ well, I lived for a time in the Urewera’s which is around Lake Waikaremoana, which is in the Center of the North Island of New Zealand.  So as a child, I lived with local people there, and went to school in a small school in a place called Kaitawa. And, as a ten and eleven-year-old, so were all my friends. We free-ranged in the forest, in this magnificent forest in the Urewera’s and we did all sorts of things, and had adventures that young boys do. But, I now realize of course, in hindsight, that this was sort of like and induction time for me, because I was learning so much. I had no fear of the forest. We used to climb up trees and a lower ourselves on little ropes, down into caves, and things, and explore. But, we were always safe. We were always looked after. And so that, to my way of thinking, was my introduction toe what I call the natural order. The power of the forest, and the lands, and the waters.

And so then of course, we go through life and all sorts of things happen to us. We have traumatic events. And I guess one of the most traumatic events I had, which I guess I can insert here…. This is just to give people an idea of how we overcome. When I was about sixteen and a half, we had moved from rural areas, and we were living in the South of Auckland, which is in the North Island of New Zealand. And this was just after…. Not long after – five, six years after the end or World War Two. Shows you how old I am. And we were exploring around an old American army base, set in bush around the little township of Manurewa, where I lived.  Anyhow, the long and short of it is, as young boys we used to fiddle around with things and we found live ammunition that the American soldiers had left behind. They had dumped hand grenades, and shells, and all sorts of things in the creek. And as inquisitive little boys, we were retrieving these things, and looking at them, and going ooh and ah…. And anyhow, one of these objects I was mucking around with, blew up in my hand. And so…. Therefore, I was sort of as a sixteen-year-old, quite devastated.      

Oh wow! As you would be.

A physical injury, lots of body damage, and things like that. Bits and pieces fell off. So that was…. I guess, my first major traumatic event in my life. And, I guess that this really set the scene for – you know, where I was going to go with my life, and how I was going to develop. So then we get into life, and we go to work, and things like this. And I fitted quite well into society, even though I was a sort of a little bit injured. And did all sorts of things. And I started off my career, believe it or not…. It was wonderful that a company took me into me into their fold and employed me as a shoe salesman. And so I started off my career as a shoe salesman. No academic career with me, ‘cause, I lost so much time at school.

So, away I went and therefore, pursued all sorts of things, and I got into journalism, photography, photojournalism, and pursued that for a number of years. And away we went. Getting married, of course, in the sixties. And having four, wonderful children. And right the way through…. But then, I guess the next big thing, and this is probably the main thing which affected me in a deep, deep spiritual way, was I had, what they call now days – A near death experience! I didn’t quite realise at the time, but in about nineteen-seventy-three to seventy-four it was…. I didn’t realise I was allergic to bee venom, and I got stung in the back of the neck, by a bee. By the time I was rushed, fifteen to twenty miles to the nearest doctor, from a rural area where we were living, I was clinically dead.  Everything had stopped functioning.

So I was revived, but I had what what is now known as, or should I say traditional, near death experience. And I guess that this was the big opening thing for me. So from there on, right up to the present day, I’m very, very thankful for that particular journey into those realms, and for the fact that I came back! And came back, bewildered, unwell physically. I was sort of laid in bed for weeks and weeks up afterwards. And in those days too, I might add…. In the early nineteen-seventies, the near death experience was not a term that anyone was aware of. And I’d never read about it.

And so, that’s what I had! And of course this, then – as you can appreciate Marianne, opens up all sorts of possibilities in a person. Away we go! And then we trip off through life and have all sorts of grand adventures. So often it is trauma, or traumatic events which happen in your life – not necessarily life threatening. They could be emotional events, and things like this. Sometimes, these are events which trigger responses in people. Deep responses. So, yeah, that’s just a little overview. So…. And then, I’ve had a very, very interesting life up to date. I’ve just turned eighty a little while ago, so I’m still going quite strong. Although I am slowing down, quite a bit. I don’t quite climb the mountains as I used to, or lower myself into caves on a rope, like I used to. But, that’s a little thumb-nail sketch.

That’s brilliant thank you, thank you Gary! And actually, if you had time, I would really like to do a whole separate episode on your music and work with the plants in this way – if you would be so willing to share that journey with my listeners and I?

Yes, that would be lovely. Yes, why not do that!

I would really, really like that. ‘Cause, I think that there would be a lot of people who would get…. Who would get a lot of information about that, and may in fact, inspire them to go on and try it for themselves. And plus it’s so darned fascinating. Today, I think it might be quite nice to talk about…. Because, I’ve just finished a series, in fact tomorrow, my last…. My episode on the Patupaiarehe goes live…. So it’s perfect timing actually, as universe always does. This is perfect timing to have you on the show, following that episode. So maybe you could tell us a bit about your journey with the Patupaiarehe, and working with nature spirits and stuff like that?

Certainly! I suppose that my introduction, really to these realms…. In hindsight, going back to when I was a child, running around the forests, in the Urewera’s and also up in the East Coast at Te Araroa. Living in these rural areas, and having free range amongst the trees, and the forests, and in the fields, and the streams, and the rivers…. And coastal areas, of course. As children, we sort of, we imbibe nature. We were comfortable within what we were doing, and I guess in hindsight that – I keep using that word…. We were being protected. We were being guided, even at that young age…. Just with our play, and our adventures that we had.

And, I suppose the first impact I had of a, an occurrence from these other realms was, back in about nineteen-ninety-nine, I think it was…. Raewyn and I had joined a group that were crossing over the Southern Alps. The mountains in the South Island of New Zealand. Carrying the sacred stone, the pounamu, the greenstone – on the ancient greenstone trails. And we were doing a five to six day crossing. We had two groups of twelve, with a guide. And so, we were twenty-five people. And, as it turns out Raewyn and I were sent ahead of the main parties, on the second to last day to set up camp for the night. Which meant, bringing in firewood, to where the fire was going to be set. And we’re near a little mountain cabin, and getting buckets out, and bringing water from the river.

So everything was set up, and we were virtually a day ahead as it turns out. We had been choppered in by helicopter, so here were, and we suddenly found that being there in the early morning, we weren’t expecting our party to come through until later on in the day. So, we had lots of time. So, we did all the chores. Got all the firewood in, and the water in. Then we went to sit on the banks of the Wilberforce river.

Now this river flows, so beautifully blue – that incredible blue you get from glacial, and mountain water. And it was a raging sort of river. And, we’re sitting near the banks there, meditating. Sitting side by side and looking out over the river. Towering mountains all around us. And, after a time we got into depths with our meditation, and suddenly, I heard singing. And it was quite incredible. I could not make out individual voices, but I could hear like a choir singing. I could hear singing.

And I sort of…. It roused me from whatever state I was in. I sort of came back to the world, and turned around to look at Raewyn. And she, was just turning around to look at me, opening her eyes. And we sort of said to each other, did you hear that? And she said the same – yes, I heard that! The singing! Where’re the voices? Where’re the voices coming from? The voices at this time had…. Disappeared! They’d gone! But it was enough to enliven both of us to stand on our feet, and look around. And first of all, we thought it may have been the rest of our party coming down the river, singing a trail song. But no! No, it wasn’t! They didn’t arrive for another five or six hours, they were so far up the river, behind us. So that was my first involvement with voices. I thought how amazing!

At that stage, I put this encounter down to the fact that these may have been spirit guardians of the ancient greenstone trail, and we were hearing their song. Then later on, I decided that it was more likely to be from the elemental realms, from the fairy realm, from the Patupaiarehe. So, and this was substantiated quite a few years later, when I was at a bush retreat in the Pureora forest which is in the centre of the North Island of New Zealand. And I’d settled down into my little bunk, in my sleeping bag, on one particular evening. And suddenly there was tapping on the window by my head, and children’s laughter!

And so I thought, oh my gosh, what’s going on? ‘Cause, amongst the group there were some family groups and there were some quite young children. It is quite late and us adults had been up until about eleven or twelve o’clock, before we went to bed. So, sort of stumbled out of bed and my sleeping bag, and threw the curtains back from the window, and looked out – moonlight night. Nothing there! Opened the window, and looked up and down – and no, nothing there! I thought, oh my gosh! Must be, some of those children have come to tap on the window. Just having a little fun at my expense.

So back I get. I just get into the sleeping bag again, and just start to lie down…. And tap, tap on the window, and laughter. So this time, I was pretty quick off the mark. I wasn’t rising from a deep sleep, I leapt up without stumbling in my sleeping bag. Threw open the window, and looked out again. Nothing there! The sound had gone. I thought, ok now if it’s someone…. These three little children, with their parent’s sort of down in the bunk room, next to me, I’ll dive in there and see what’s happening. So, I grab a torch and down the corridor, into the room there, stealthily. And, there are all the little kids and their parents, fast asleep. All snug in their sleeping bags.

And so, I thought, oh my gosh! What’s going on here? So, the next morning I mention this encounter to the kaumatua, that was with us for this weekend. He said oh! He said that was the Patupaiarehe! I said, what do you mean? He said – “oh, they often come around here. I’ve experienced them, any number of times! And, they’re quite mischievous – they’ll tap on windows, and they’ll have jokes at your expense.” And, I thought, oh my gosh, what’s going on?

Yeah, so this really initiated a very, very big – or deep interest in the Patupaiarehe, and the fairy folk of the forests, of New Zealand. And, then I remembered, of course, at this stage that over my years of roaming around New Zealand, and extensively investigating ancient sites, from ancient people previous to the Maori people – the Waitaha, etc. I had been collecting stories from farmers, and hunters, and things…. Just little notes, about encounters that they had, had. In forests, and on the back of farms etc. …. Sort of in the fringe, wilderness places of New Zealand. And, so I started to look back over the stories, and my gosh! There I had a wealth of information, and anecdotal stories about encounters!

And so often the encounters were rural areas – farmers at the back of their farms, or hunters when they were actually on a solo hunt in the forest, or maybe with their dog or two. But, having encounters with little people, that suddenly stepped out from behind the bushes to look at them! Or little groups of four or five little people walking across a paddock. And, not realising they were being observed by the farmer.

So, but one of the most memorable stories Marianne, came my way, and this really, really triggered a lot…. And this happened now, probably ten years ago. And it was in April, it was coming on winter. And, this happened in the Waipoua forest which is in Northland of New Zealand. It’s quite a remote forest area. In the sense, that it’s a long, long way from towns and cities. And it was…. A good highway runs through it!

Forestry Workers Experience.

And the particular story I got, was that one evening. A Friday evening, at ‘round about eight o’clock. It was quite dark. There was a group of forestry workers. And these are young men from the town of Dargaville, up North. They’d been away from home for the week, working in the forests. Friday night, they’re heading back home for a weekend with family, and friends. And so, there were about seven or eight of them in this minibus. Three sitting in the front seat. The driver, and two passengers, and the rest in the back.

So, they’re driving down through the Waipoua forest, and descending down the road to where it crosses the river. There’s only one river flows through the forest, and this is the Waipoua river. And they were at about the third corner from the bridge – I know this quite well, and suddenly the driver came around the corner and had to slam the brakes on! On the van. The van just skidded to a noisy halt! Throwing some of the workers in the back, into sort of disarray – you know, falling off seats and things like that. And everyone sort of came to very rapidly, to see what had happened? Why had he put his breaks on so dramatically?

And then suddenly, when they all looked over at the driver in the front seats passenger’s shoulders…. There in the headlights, the full headlights of the van, was a grouping, or a string of children…. As they thought, crossing the road in front of them, from right to left. And they were looking, and the children walking across the road were coming up a bank, down to the right. Across the road, and up another bank between some big Kauri trees and disappearing!

Now, there was no head count done – but they estimate it was in excess of twenty children in this particular – yes! In this particular group. So, they were looking, looking, and then they started to chat amongst themselves and the conversation sort of went vaguely…. What are these children doing out here at this hour of the night?   You know?  And one said – well there’s no tracks around here, why are they walking around here? Where’s their teachers if it’s a school group, or having a forest experience? Where’s their torches? All of this was being said and bandied about, and they were just sort of coming to grips with the situation. And, as the figures walked across – child-sized figures walked across, in the headlights – without even looking into the headlights! Going…. Just ambling, they weren’t rushing or running across the road, from the descriptions I got.

And then suddenly one of the young Maori boys, ‘cause, they’re all young Maori workers here. He said; “oh my gosh! I think that’s the Patupaiarehe!” And suddenly, there was a silence in the van as some of the other Maori boys there, suddenly swallowed markedly. And suddenly there was a fear that gripped them, cause amongst Maori legends, and stories often the Patupaiarehe, the fairy folk are portrayed as being quite evil, and quite mischievous. And to beware of them!

So suddenly, there was silence and they were just looking and staring. And then, the group tailed out and went off across the hill and vanished – and so, the engine restarted. There was, one could call, an almost deathly silence amongst everyone. They’d stopped chatting! And they proceeded on down the road to the place called Kai – Kaihu, where there is a tavern, or a pub at the side of the road there.  Where they always used to stop on the way home, to have a beer or two. They didn’t stop on this time. They went straight back to Dargaville.  They were petrified, and those that we spoke to and got affidavits from, there was two in particular – who said that they would never ever, drive through that forest again at night time! So, that was an extreme situation, Marianne.

Incredible first hand story from seven or eight (cut from first mention of seven or eight and place here), different people – not that we interviewed all them, we only spoke to about four of them. So, from that encounter came apprehension and fear. From that encounter, also an incredible uplifting experience for some of those in the van. So it was a…. Very much a mixed reaction.

So that of course, got me going! I thought, my gosh! So then started to collate all my stories, and then wow! Now, most of my stories came from around this area of Northland of the North Island, and because this is where I’ve been doing all my research on the early people, and my amateur archaeological work. So I’ve been working up there for quite a number of years. And so, this is where the majority of my stories came from, and I thought, there’s certainly something going on around the Waipoua forest!

So! That really got us going, and from that of course, we produced a fifty-minute documentary. We went into the forest. I took a film crew in, and we looked at trying to film…. First, we filmed people telling us their stories, and then we spent a few nights on locations in various forests – trying to see if we could capture something. Not necessarily on film, but even with just sound recordings! That was not as successful as we would have liked, because, I believe now that the fairy folk – the Patupaiarehe, or whatever the fairy folk may be, anywhere in the world…. They’re not just going to come out and pose for the camera! They’re not into the digital age in that sense! And so, anything that you capture or see, may be quite accidentally – and that’s what happened!

We were filming a recreation of a woman walking through the forest, and experience that she had told me about. And we actually filmed something in the background of one of the shots – which was quite bewildering! So we did capture something. We captured sounds in the forest at night time – odd sounds.

So that was the big reveal, as far as I was concerned. And then, of course from that, I have now spent more time studying fairy stories from all around the world! I’ve actually joined, the fairy investigation society, which is based in the UK. And that, it’s an [inaudible] for your listeners…. It’s easy enough to join – Fairy investigation society. Remember that name.  The man heading it up now is a professor of medieval history from oxford university. And he, for the last six years has been running and international census on fairy sightings, and what’s been coming in – they publish them.  It’s all freely available online. They publish all responses they are getting from all around the world, and I mean, hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds – from all parts of the world….

It’s obvious that there’s something going on there. There has always been something going on! Because, all the indigenous people that we know of in the world today, and once you start to delve into their history and their legends, they all have stories of little people. Mostly, little people – and, so often they are very, very similar to the descriptions of the Patupaiarehe in New Zealand. And even to the little people in Australia. Very short in statue, sort of three to four foot tall perhaps. Fair of skin. Fair of hair, and…. Always very illusive, only coming out at night. So there we are! That’s a bit of a rave there Marianne…. But how I came to the Patupaiarehe side. Yeah.

That’s a really great journey Gary, how very interesting to listen to. I actually saw that DVD you were talking about! Could you please tell the listeners the name of it, and it is available from Gary’s website, which I will link on our podcast website page.

Yes, it is. “Voices from the forest”

It is a really awesome DVD. For all you listeners, I recommend, I highly recommend that you purchase it. I think it may also be available from Gaia – is that right Gary?

Yes, from Gaia online.  To view for just a small charge, you can view it online.

I think that is actually where I viewed it, as I was unaware of your DVD’s at that stage, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. And yeah…. I particularly remember that scene where you captured that anomalous being.

Oh yes, that’s right. That was exciting!

Very exciting! So for listeners, particularly those who have an interest in this area, I strongly recommend you go to Gary’s website and look that up! Gary’s website is called “The Secret Land: Sacred Sites and Ancient Mysteries”, the internet addy is: www.secretland.co.nz. There’s some really great information on there as well, and it will be linked on the episode page on the podcast website. www.walkingtheshadowlands.com so you can go and visit for yourself. How long did it take you to make that documentary Gary?

It’s amazing, we were a very tight team. There was myself, our director Christianne van Wijk and our producer, and our cameraman. There were four of us. And we travelled extensively over the North Island of New Zealand, and just in a period of three to four weeks, max.  So we went out, we interviewed people. We set up recre…. Reenactments of various stories that were given to us, and doing a lot of filming on site during the day, and at night. And then we edited…. It took longer and longer to edit that. 

So the whole thing was actually done, you know, it’s amazing what you can do – probably in about six to eight weeks. Because as you could appreciate, as your listeners may or may not know too…. That it’s all very well going out and doing all the filming. And, running around. And, having all this fun, but then you’ve got to come back home somewhere, and edit it all, and put it all together. To give it a coherence, and of course put in, background music, and things like that! So all this had to be done. But we ended up…. And we did it on a very, very tight budget. And we made virtually, a one-hour documentary. I think we made it for about fifty-thousand dollars. Which in today’s terms you would be looking at a hundred to a hundred and twenty thousand.

So we were just blessed by having people who were willing to work with…. Everyone, everyone was paid, ‘cause all the costs of this go…. And then on-site costs, travelling around the country, accommodation, and paying everyone. I paid everyone. Everyone got a wage for the time we were out shooting. And then of course, you’ve got to pay for all the editing work, which is done – and it came out so beautiful, and such a professional job.

Yes, they did a really awesome job. I do some video editing myself, and so I know how much work goes into it. It’s a very professionally done video. Not to mention it shows the beautiful land we have here in New Zealand. Can you perhaps share some other experiences people may have shared with you?

Yes, I’ve got a couple of favourite ones which I always love. These stories, they all…. They reinforce each other, with descriptions of what people have seen. And this is one that took place in an area called the Tangowahine Valley, which is out of Dargaville, on the Southern, South-Eastern side of the Waipoua Forest, and up this very long valley with steep sides. Going into planted forest, and also natural forest are a lot of farms – dairy farms, and that sort of thing.

Farmer & Son’s Experience

And this particular story which came out of the valley was to do, in a summer evening. After the farmer had finished milking his cows for the night, he and his twelve-year-old son thought they would go up the back of the property – up the tracks, up the high part of the property. To see if they could shoot a couple of rabbits for the pot. Ok, so they took their little 22 shot rifle, and away Dad and the son go. Walking up the farm tracks, to the back of the farm. And, it didn’t seem to matter to them when they did this, from what I can gather. Whether or not they saw rabbits, it didn’t matter – because, the thing was they were just having such and incredible father and son time, after a busy day on the farm. And so, they walked right up to the back of the farm, to where their boundary fence came along, and it was a typical farming type of fence. I think probably an eight wire strand. Number eight fencing wire, eight wire strand. And, which was to keep things like deer if they were in the forest coming in, and what have you. And keep all their cattle, and perhaps sheep in.

So they came up to this site, and this actually, this was a spot where they often sat. Because, they had a magnificent view down the hill they’d just come up, right across the valley where their farm was nestled. The milking shed, and the farm house, and little river flowing through the valley. And this was a resting place. So they sat down Leaned against the fence there, and Dad, of course, rolls himself a cigarette. Just sitting there taking in the beautiful evening view. And then he said, when he was telling us about this. Suddenly he became aware of the fact that the wire on the fence was squeaking. Now, as you know, when you actually put a fence, a farm fence together, you’ve got staples which you put around the wire. And of course, there’s always movement, and that. And so suddenly the wires were squeaking behind him. And he thought my gosh…. Squeak, squeak, squeak! Well! Must be someone climbing over the fence, so he leaned well forward and looked to his right, back up the fence, which went right up a slight rise. And there he saw three little figures standing in front of the fence!

Then he became aware, that two more figures came over the fence, with a very, very, tiny figure. Very, very short indeed, he said. And he said; “I was looking at them. They were just standing there.” And his first thought was, what on earth are these children doing? Where on earth did they come from? I mean…. As he said telling the story, “My farm backs onto the forest! And there’s nothing up there. Not even any tracks! People who go up there are hunters.” And so, he nudged his son and said; “Look at this!” And so the son leaned forward too, and looked up to the right, and there was five, very short, child…. Child-sized figures, and a little figure. And so then, the figures started to move down the hill. There was a slope there, in front of them, and started to go down the hill. The little figure was jumping and cavorting all around at their feet. And so, this is when Dad, and the son stood up, to step out a bit from the fence, to have a better view. Now this was taking place, probably seventy-five, maybe one hundred metres away. Not terribly far. But enough light to make out the figures quite clearly.

And then, as they stood up and stepped forward, the line of figures was going down the hill…. And the little figure suddenly saw them and started to gesticulate and wave its arms in the air, and move towards them. And this of course, alerted the bigger figures to the fact that there were humans there. That there was someone else there besides themselves. And so, they quickly grabbed up the little one, and ran straight down this grassy slope, up the other side of the small valley, and to where there was another stand of bush. And disappeared!

And the man said, well it was almost as if they were taking a short cut from one bit of the forest to another. Was climbing over the fence down there, and he said wow. He said, the little figure that was waving and dancing…. He said, with the way it moved and its attitude – the fact that it was so active, it was not a little baby! It was the equivalent possibly to a three to four-year-old child, a very diminutive…. So, he said, that what I was seeing, what we were seeing – I don’t know to this day. He said, I don’t like to put names to it. But I was seeing very, very small adults – very short adults, with a baby. With a young one with them. And they just disappeared, very rapidly down the hill, up the other side, and into the forest. So that was one, incredible sighting. And, a number of sightings like that! And, always around the main forest areas. Where they would come out of the forest for water, or something like that. So, a number of stories. And that, to my way of thinking, was one of the most exciting stories we have received.

That’s pretty exciting alright!

Hunter’s Experience

It was! So it’s…. There was another one, which was quite, quite unique – and this was a solo sighting. In the sense that this hunter that we spoke to, had gone to an area adjacent to the forest. But it was an area which was all scrub land. It was very, very swampy in the old days. It had been drained, but it was still all Tea-tree and Manuka, and things like that growing. And, he used to park his vehicle at the end of this farm-track, and go pig-hunting, and take his dog with him.  So he got his rifle out,  and dog, and had the dog on a lease to start with until he got into the bush. And there was a track that he followed to go into the deeper bush, looking for pigs. He said, as we went into the bush there were a couple of… oh what do you call those? Pampas grass bushes on either side. Great big long leaves, you know? Dry leaves…. And he said, he noticed that on both sides – all the leaves, or a number of the leaves had been plaited into great big long strings. Beautiful little plaits. And he said cripes! Whose been here? Once again, this was a place which was only accessible by driving over private farm-land with permission to go and park up, and then go hunting.

So not a place where lots of people went. Mostly just hunters who had permission to do so. And he was one of the hunters with permission. So, he said ok and away he goes to the forest, and he lets the dog off the leash. And he hadn’t gone very, very far – Oh not the forest, the Tea-tree and Manuka scrub. Hadn’t gone very, very far, and the dog was still just around in front of him. And suddenly…. There was a bush on the side – a clump of bush on the side of the track. And he said, a small figure stepped out and looked straight at me…. And then suddenly, it sort of looked at us, and then turned around and ran off down around the track! Of course the dog saw the figure running and took off after it.

And his first thought was oh my God! You know, there’s a child in here! I don’t know where the child has come from? Once again, just looking at the stature and the height. What am I going to do? So he ran off furiously after the dog which was still barking and disappearing into the distance. And, I don’t know how far he ran. Bit he kept on running. The dog had stopped barking and oh my gosh!  So he came around a little bend, to a little bit of a clearing, where grass was growing on either side of the track. And there was the dog, laying there – down on the ground. Huffing and frothing at the mouth! And he thought oh my god, what’s gone on here?  He went up to the dog, and the dog was twitching and going into spasms, and just laying on the ground. Oh my gosh! Heavens, something’s wrong with it. It’s either been poisoned or it’s just eaten something? His first thought was, I’m going to have to put my dog down, and I can’t suffer this – there were no injuries on the dog, other than what it was going through. It was frothing at the mouth, and whining, and spasming…. So he thought, oh actually, I’m going to have to kill the dog. But then, suddenly the dog sort of shook itself a bit, and came around, and stood up on it’s feet, all wobbly…. And the guy said oh, and put the leash on it and said well, I can’t go into the forest now, after all this has happened. So he turned around, to go back out the short distance he had travelled…. Through the trees, back to where his car was. Quite bewildered about what had gone on. What had happened to the child, he didn’t – just didn’t even think about. He was more concerned about his dog.

Obviously the dog had not found the child, and sort of attacked it, or anything like that. And then he came back out to go through the pampas grass, which he passed through earlier on. Where all the leaves had been plaited together, in beautiful plaits. And he said he noticed that all the plaits were gone. The leaves were just straight again. And so, he got in his car and went home.

So this was an event which happened, which was a mystery to him. He doesn’t know what he saw. He was not willing to enter into any sort of – deep observations. He thought he saw a child – mysterious. He didn’t know about the Patupaiarehe, or the fairy folk of the forest. So that was another side there, where one of these little figures was actually chased by a dog!

So it seems that the manifestation of the Patupaiarehe, or the fairy folk, or those that live in the fairy realms, in the physical form are –  if they are noticed and seen, have come through…. It’s quite a tangible, physical form – and they just don’t suddenly vanish in front of your eyes. I mean, this little figure ran, and it’s a bit like the early story I told you about the farmer watching the people going across the farmland in front of them. They didn’t just suddenly dematerialise and disappear. And the same with the figures in the headlights.  So, when they are there. They are there – do you see what I mean? And if they are seen – so, and what really prompted me, after listening to all these stories, to go into the forest and see what we could find for ourselves…. Was particularly in the Northern Forest around Waipoua, and this was the notion in my documentary.  To see indeed, if there were little fairy folk, lived in the forest. OR was there a lost race of people? Diminutive people, still living in the forests up there? So that’s what we went to look at. Yeah….

That is really cool, and most interesting. Do you believe Gary that these Patupaiarehe are interdimensional beings? That they can….

I would say so, but a great description which is given in the documentary by a dear friend of ours. A very, very wonderful dowser who helped with our research work. He says they are incredible shape-shifters. And this is something which comes out in a lot of stories that you hear – whether from New Zealand, or overseas – ah stories from the faery realms. Suddenly, you’ll be walking past a tree you’ve walked past – you know, often when you’re going for a ramble in the forest. And on this particular day you stop by the tree and look at it.  There merging into the bark is a small figure sitting there. So, shapeshifting in the sense they…. I guess, being part of the elemental realms, if you like to look at that? I mean that’s another thing – how do you categorize elementals, as opposed to faeries? And within the faery realms, of course, we have so many different rankings and ratings….  You know? What they sort of look like, and their names…. I’ve got a little book – oh that I brought back from England a number of years ago. And there’s a list in there of one hundred and twenty-three different names! Of different types of faeries. It becomes…. It becomes quite complex.

So, they’re there…. And I think, very much shape-shifters. And I think though, that if a person has a really strong interest, and a desire to see them…. And meditates upon them, that one can definitely connect with them. I’m quite happy myself, just too have heard them.  And, also be associated with people who have seen them. And see, and talk to them about their experiences. It does not matter little to me, whether I see them or not. Whether I film them or not. But, I know they’re there all the time. We’ve got a big forest attached to our land here, that’s part of our land. And, I’ve got what I call the ‘Faery Glade’, where I go and sit down there – and this is where I have my contacts. And the responses from those realms, which are as we were looking – or as you said earlier on…. They’re almost like parallel realms of existence, and they are so close to where we are…. I liken it to these realms are…. Separation is no thicker than a butterflies wing.  

It is so delicate. And it is there. And so, so easy – if one applies themselves, with genuine intent to actually see or share with these figures. I also feel, as I said in the documentary – even at that time, and more so now – that there is a desire, I think, for communication, with  some of the beings in the faery real.  Because of what humankind – mankind, is doing to the environment. Of the planet…. Because, within the biosphere of the planet, those realms share exactly what we share! And they share the same waters, the same land, the same fruits, and things of this nature. So, I have a feeling what humans are doing to the planet is impacting on the other folk! The uh…. Yeah, ah there we are!

Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. That’s absolutely, that’s really fascinating! And so very, very interesting – which brings up a whole…. Can take us off into a whole different tangent – like the elementals… I am very aware of your time Gary, and I could talk to you for hours, because you are so interesting. I was thinking…. Would it be ok with you, if we did a few interviews and you can discuss whatever you want? Like, I would really like to hear about your archaeological work. Your Waitaha work. I’d really, really like to hear about your plant work.

That’s right – the music of the plants…. That’s a whole wonderful field. And that of course touches onto the Elemental realms too. The plant – the plant elementals

Right! If you would agree to do that, I would be so excited to do that!

Why not! Why not, no…. Because, as I said – I’ve got so much more to share. I’m always publishing things on my FB page. And that’s a bit of – sort of a concern in a way. Because, quite a long time ago I maxed out on the amount of FB friends you can have –which is five thousand…. Then you are supposed to set up another page and do this and that. But, I just haven’t got all that tech ability and didn’t do that. And so, I’ve got five thousand people on the FB page, and I’ve got…. Now, I suddenly discovered last week, I’ve got over three thousand followers as well. So, there’s eight thousand people out there that I’m pumping out information, through my FB continuously. Particularly with faery events as they come to light, and also with music of the plants.

Because I have a program at the moment, where I’m going out on a regular basis, into the land here – into our vege garden, so I’ve just been recording vegetable plants and posting that up so people can hear it. I’ve also got over forty short film clips available on YouTube, so people can just put up Gary Cook, NZ. And go onto YouTube, and just see what I have been recording the last four or five years.

Yes, I saw those clips

Yes. So those are available as well – freely available.

I’ll put a link on this episodes page on my podcast website – www.walkingtheshadowlands.com so people can access the videos via that if they wish too. Along with all your information. So I’ll have links to your website, and links to your FB page, as well as the YouTube page, links to your shop – so people can go and check them out for themselves. Is there anything else you would like to say about the Patupaiarehe or your experiences with them, before we close off this episode?

No, not at this stage – ‘cause, probably I could go on for another couple of hours… But you know, it’s interesting because I think, once awareness…. Once one understands that there are little forest dwellers – and garden dwellers…. Not, not only in the forest. They are in the gardens, they’re in the landscape. They’re everywhere. And these are not necessarily the uh, faeries that…. The Disney faeries with little wings which flit all around the place.  I mean the winged faeries virtually were popularized cause, that’s the Disney faery – which is Tinkerbell. But going back to the turn of the last – the previous century, in the eighteen hundred, when spiritualist groups were looking at the faery realms and things. So, winged faeries came into being in the days of the spiritualist movement. In the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, throughout Europe. 

Prior to that, going back into medieval literature, and stories, and from indigenous people all around the world…. They do not talk about there being winged faeries. They’re all beings that resemble humans in shape. But not necessarily in demeanour, or in physical aspects. But you know, they stand like little humans…. And this is where you get such varying descriptions – whether you are looking at Goblins, or you are looking at Elves. Or, you are looking at Dwarfs. Whether you are looking at Leprechauns…. And so…. And it seems too – and I think it’s the same with the Patupaiarehe, that the little people of these lands take on very, very much…. Or emulate in a way, the people that they live with on these various lands around the world.  So descriptions will be from aboriginal people in Australia, to North American Indian people…. The figures all look the same, as far as height goes etc. etc. But, they all have the demeanour or the physical features of small tribal people, ok?

Like yeah… so but, they’re there, and as I said earlier on just for people to look at – the Fairy Investigation society. You don’t have to pay to join up, and there, go back into their archives, and look at the last four years. They’ve published three different census figures, and this is now hundreds, and hundreds of people have been writing in. From all around the world. And, they’ve got the listings sectionalised in various parts of the world, so it’s very easy enough to look up New Zealand, and look up Australia, and look up the US of A.  And, also there…. Around the world there are very strong faery movements.

Now, very high profile, actually in the UK, and ‘round England. But, quite a number in North America, the US of A, and Canada. And, not so much in New Zealand, that I know of. Just people of interest groups, they will talk about this. I suppose within interest groups – I’d like to say the Theosophical society etc. …. Which have a very broad approach to everything esoteric. Yeah, they look quite seriously on the faery realms, and also on some of their earlier research work – done by some of the early writers, talk quite openly about all this. 

So, far as I’m concerned. They’re all there! They’re out there. They’re around us all the time. Sometimes we may be aware of them. We have a feeling…. It’s a feeling that I talked about on the documentary actually. The fact that, at times when I was working in forest areas, and bush areas on my own doing archaeological research work…. You’d get the feeling that you’re being looked at…. So strong…. You’re bent over doing your work – looking at your compass, or writing notes down, and oh my god, someone’s actually looking at me! And, you turn around quickly to see who’s there in the forest behind you, but you don’t see anything. But you know that you’re being looked at. So that’s a feeling which a lot of people experience. Sometimes you’ll experience that feeling when you are in a crowd of people.  Sitting in an auditorium or something. You know, someone’s looking at me – and you turn around… Sure enough, there’s someone three or four rows back whose been eyeballing you, for some reason. But in the forest situation, out there in the middle of nowhere, with no one else around – you don’t see anybody, but you know someone is there.

That would be quite a disconcerting feeling, I would imagine….

It can be, in a way…. But over the years I’ve been aware of the fact that certain places in New Zealand, which are wahi-tapu-s on them. That’s the Maori Tapu, to don’t look, don’t go, don’t touch, keep out! If you go into areas like that, or around them, you can feel the presence of say – spiritual guardians, or the ancestors. And so, this is something that is still quite strong amongst some Maori people today. Not only their belief in Patupaiarehe, but also their avid belief in the fact that there are spirit guardians still around – their ancestors. Some of the ancestors have not passed through, they still linger, and they are guardians of certain places, for certain reasons. So sometimes one can infringe, accidentally on those areas, and you become aware of something that is a little different to a benevolent observation of the back of your head. Something that sends shivers up and down your back. And for myself, I was give a karakia to say – which is a Maori prayer, to say at such times as this. Which would be to establish who I was, and why I was there etc. So that would take away any sort of fear the ancient guardians had of me as an intruder.

Right…. That actually reminds me of…. I was just speaking with a lady the other day. She was a forestry worker. And she was telling me of experiences that she and some of the workers had at a particular forest block in NZ with an elemental who was very angry at their presence, because they had been disrespected. And so, they had so many things going wrong. People having accidents, machines breaking down, people’s breaks failing… And it wasn’t just the forestry workers. Anybody who went into that thirty kilometre area of the forest – bee keepers, people going to fix fences…. All had accidents. Had machines break. Had all sorts of things go wrong with them. Even this lady had a very nasty accident, that almost destroyed her ability to walk. And, I will be doing another episode with her experiences in them at some in the near future.

Yeah. That’s, that’s a fascinating story. There’s a number of stories that I collected like that over the years. And, the only way that can ever be changed – ‘cause, this is a very, very deep thing. And, this may be attributable to guardian spirits of a particular area. Spirits of the ancestors who have passed, but the request placed upon them was too remain there as guardian for as long as it took. To keep people away, and to frighten them away from an area. And that may have been because a particular type of tapu, like a wahi-tapu was put in place. And people…. You know there’s no sort of makers to say, don’t go, this is a tapu area. Not unless it’s a modern tapu, but for old, ancient tapu – you just don’t know.  You could walk in. I remember quite a number of years ago, I was up north exploring some ancient, volcanic valleys – you know, great lava flows, and things. Big cracks in the earth, and I wandered into this particular valley which was big lava walls, you know? Quite steep and I wandered into a burial area, by mistake – ‘cause, suddenly there were hundreds and hundreds of bones, and skulls sticking out of the cliff face.

Oh my gosh! This is a place I don’t want to be. And so, I did a karakia and backtracked. But, I did attract something. I took something back on my shoulders, which was seen by a clairvoyant person.  Who didn’t know where I had been, but said oh my gosh you’re carrying something which you’ve got to get rid of. So, this can happen as well. That, this is not to be confused with the faery realms….It’s quite different! Ok. I mean, I know of events…. I mean, this is digressing a little here, and I’ve experienced this myself also…. Walking into a place – not necessarily in a forest area, could be in a farm area, but there was a history. A Maori history. A great battle had taken place there and a lot of people had been killed. So there was an ancient story, and walking into this place, feeling a cold shiver envelope the group of us. We all started to feel cold, in the bright sunlight. And then we found out from a person who lived just down the road, from the site…. He said oh, what’s going on there, is an ancient battle being fought there. It’s on a loop. And the Maori there – tribal fighting. They are fighting a battle which was first fought two to three hundred years ago, and they’re still fighting it on a daily basis. So, there’s this at another level in the landscape. But not to be confused with the elemental, or the faery realms.

Right! Right, not to be confused with the faery folk.

Yeah, I’ve spoken to people too, also Marianne, who’ve been accosted by a Maori warrior. Brandishing a spear and challenging them! Just leaning out, when they walked onto an old pa site. So these were…. Can only be seen in a sense, by very, very sensitive people. But that happens, which is a…. would be a bit disconcerting. And, I think  if people feel any apprehension, about walking into a place – sort of when they’re wandering around, in the land, or in the forest. Is just too, even just apologise for being there and backtrack. You know what I mean?

Right, exactly! Ok, one last question before I let you go. And that is, have you noticed over your period of time, working in this area…. Have you noticed that people are becoming perhaps more open? And, more accepting of other realities?

I think so. There seems to be – maybe it’s just the circles I move in? Because I don’t move in very broad circles anymore. My movement amongst people, like with yourself is very focused, but like-minded people. I still go out and give talks. Earlier this year I did three workshops at the ‘Voices of the sacred earth’ in Auckland there. I did three consecutive workshops. I had about eighty – ninety people in each workshop. Or…. Not a workshop, it was a talk and a discussion all experiential. And, these were all like-minded people. They understand. As I’m talking to them, they’re nodding their heads. They know what I am talking about. So, there seems to be, more and more people having an understanding. And, even just coming in touch with what I call – ordinary folk, out there…. If the subject comes up, some people have a story of their own to share. And I think cripes! I wouldn’t have thought he, or she had a faery encounter/experience.  But, they did! When they were a child, or something like that! 

And a lot of people do have, they’ve just perhaps forgotten the fact that when they were three, four, five years old, they did have an experiential encounter in the garden…. [unaudible]. Or in the forest, close by where they lived. So, a lot of people have had this contact, which they just shelved away in the recesses of their memory. Then suddenly, you prompt them to pull it out. And, they say oh my god I did have this happen to me years ago! It only ever happened once. And, I sort of say to people if I get responses like that in a group – heaven’s above! You’ve already had a contact, and if you wished, you can renew these contacts quite easily. So, there we are! There’s I think a lot more awareness of contacts with these beings, and other realms. Getting past the superstition of the Maori people because, a lot of the iwi, Maori, still have deep set superstitions about the Patupaiarehe, and how mischievous and dangerous they could be. And others of course, are very open, and they’ll even share their own childhood stories with you.

I know that when I was researching the Patupaiarehe episode, I approached some Maori on, online forums…. And I got some…. Some very interesting responses, to say the least. Some were concerned that I was trying to appropriate their history, their knowledge…. And it was a fair enough response.

Yeah, they become quite possessive.

Yeah, yeah – but I see it as knowledge that belongs to everybody. It doesn’t belong to any specific culture or being. It’s every bodies knowledge. Well not everybody has the knowledge, but it’s every bodies birthright, by virtue of being human.

I think there – I mean when we use the colloquial term Patupaiarehe, or turehu – there’s about five or six different names…. These little folk were known of in Maori, by Maori – if you just say faeries, you know? They’re not going to take umbrage [inaudible]…. No, there is that, and I think it’s probably the possessiveness of…. Of stories, which abound. And, some stories are being published. James Cowin, published a lot of stories that he gleaned from old Maori men when he was travelling around New Zealand, back in the turn of the last century. Previous century rather…. For example; nineteen hundred and five, nineteen hundred and six. So, and a lot of those stories were shared by the old men. Today, it seems the stories are guarded by the kuia, by the women. And they were very protective, and would get back in touch with you. And, they’ll voice their fear that something’s been taken from them, or interfered with.  And this may be around experiences they they’ve had personally….

Or, [inaudible] of the old stories. And there is still, as I said, a fear amongst some of the people, that these are not to be messed with! Not to be spoken about! And yet, I’ve spoken to old Ma…. Well not myself, but one of my fellow researchers, interviewed and old Maori man up North, many, many years ago. And he said “ Oh! Those little people in the forest? We chased them right up into the top of that mountain, (pointing to a distant hill, a big hill in the Northland there). Ah no he says, we chased them all up there, and we ate them all! So there you are!

Well yeah, yeah. Gary, thank you so much for your time today! This has been a really interesting conversation, and I…. I absolutely enjoyed listening to you sharing your experiences and your knowledge and I really look forward to doing this again.

Yeah well, you’ve got a lot of stuff you can edit back alright – so that will keep you going for quite a few hours.  Well, you’re going to be busy.

You’ve just made my day today – I’ve thoroughly enjoyed this and I know my listeners are going to get a lot of pleasure out of hearing you as well. And it’s nice to have this recorded on another medium, so your words are there…

Yes, now that’s good. I like that idea. Now days with the digital age that we live in, it’s quite interesting with the forty or so, little selfies I’ve done, I sort of do a two to three-minute thing. Every so often. Just some inspirational words which I want to share with people. And, I was suddenly thinking the other day – wow! I put those on YouTube. They could be there for the next two to three hundred years! It’s just like the written word. The written word is going to live on, even though the book may no longer be on the book shelf – disappeared from the library, it’s going to be in the archives. Archival libraries – you know? So fascinating isn’t it?

It really is. And of course you never know who this is going to touch, and who it’s going to open doors for! And, what difference it will make in their lives. In one way or another.

Well, and also to I, I love to get feedback from people – with experiences they’ve had. ‘Cause, it all adds to the information I’ve got. ‘Cause, I have the feeling there could be another book here. And, we’ve even been talking about a follow-up documentary. Because, now I actually have access through the Tūhoe people, to get even deeper and deeper into the Urewera’s

Children of the mist

So, I’m just playing around with that at the moment!

Actually in the intro I wrote about you, I mentioned that I did not feel you had yet finished producing books or documentaries. Not by a long shot.

Probably not!

In one way or another… So this is awesome Gary, and thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you Marianne. You’re a lovely host, and you do it so well, and it just makes it so relaxed which is wonderful.

Aw thank you so much Gary – you have a lovely day!

You too love. Bye for now.

When Gary responded to my email and agreed to speak with me, I was so excited, and more especially as I had literally, just finished recording and editing the Patupaiarehe episode, previous to this one. So his appearance in this podcast, could not be more timely.

And I am so looking forward to future chats with Gary to discuss his research into oh so many different fields here in NZ… on the Waitaha peoples, hidden archeology and his research into plant music – which is absolutely fascinating. So please keep an eye out for those episodes which will be coming up in future episodes, as soon as I can reschedule time with him.

Meantime if any of you have any questions you would like me to ask of Gary on your behalf, then feel free to email me at: shadowlands@myyahoo.com. I will be most happy to ask him any questions you might wish to ask him, and I feel sure he would be most gracious in answering them. So get them into me quick smart, so you don’t miss out.

Tonight is a first. We have had no break music. I did not wish to disrupt the flow of the conversation with him unnecessarily. If you enjoyed this episode, then please leave a positive rating and a written review on iTunes. Who knows? You may hear you review read out at the end of one of these episodes.

And of course, so you don’t miss out on our next episode….  Which is a most interesting interview with a gentleman from Wellington who runs one of New Zealand’s oldest and most respected paranormal investigation groups – so be sure to tune in for that one! Make sure you subscribe on iTunes, now Apple podcasts, Spotify, or your favourite podcasting platform, so you don’t miss out!

If you don’t have a smart phone, then you can listen to episodes from the podcast website www.walkingtheshadowlands.com . For those hearing impaired, there is a full- written transcript of each episode on the website, so you don’t miss out at all.

Tell your friends, tell your family, tell your workmates about our show – encourage them to listen and to subscribe also. The more the merrier! And as always, I would love to hear your experiences, or your thoughts, and any questions you might have for me.

Please consider supporting this show on patreon.com, you can check out the link on our website. Check our FB page. Like and follow for hints on our upcoming episodes.